Zohra 0:08

Hello listeners. In season two, we get the scoop on how you can build your resume, interview for success, and ultimately advance in your career. This is Inside Techcom with Zahra Mutabano. Let's get started.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Hi Olivia. Good morning. Good morning, Zora. How are you? I am doing fantastic. You're all set for this interview. It's good to see you in full form.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Yes, look, it is early, but I'm excited. It's a Saturday morning and we get to talk about hiring. And honestly, it sounds weird to think I'm excited about that on a Saturday morning, but you know you're a recruiter when you're excited to talk about hiring any day of the week.

Zohra 0:50

I'm really looking forward to kind of understanding from you the behind the scenes, the mysterious hiring process. And with that, Olivia, tell us a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Yes, absolutely. So I have been working in talent acquisition for gosh, going on almost seven years now. So I really love recruiting. I am someone who has kind of fallen into the HR world and uh have been recruiting for the past couple of years across multiple industries. So Zora, you and I obviously know each other because I helped bring you on board at Blackbot, which is where I am currently, but really just graduated uh from James Madison University back in 2013 and was not really sure what I wanted to do, but knew that I love to help people. And if you've ever worked with a recruiter, you know our job is to help folks find jobs and find career paths that really suit them. And so I've been doing this since 2016 and just love it so much that it has become really I'm moving into a little bit more of talent management now, looking into program management to talk about once we've recruited talent, how do we keep folks on board? But yeah, just love all things recruiting.

Zohra 2:05

That's awesome. And I can sense your passion come through. Also, a full disclosure, listeners, yes, Olivia is the one who brought me to this great company called Blackboard, where I'm at. And I will be ever grateful for that very first call that I got from Olivia. I've been through many, many interviews through many, many recruiters, but it's very rare where you can sort of form this relationship, this friendship with a recruiter. And I'm I'm grateful for it. Congratulations on the new things that you are looking into, first of all. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

It's exciting. I mean, hiring is incredibly important, but for me, it's it's exciting to talk about folks like yourself who come on board. We want to be able to now go back and have these kinds of conversations and be able to share. I think, you know, I know we'll get into this, but the job market has changed and how you get a job has changed. And so recruiters are, I mean, my role has changed. I've had to adapt. So these new things that I'm taking on are part of the new hiring process.

Zohra 3:03

I read this on LinkedIn. Somebody had said finding a job is like dating these days.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

It's true. It's true. It's terrifying because who wants to be dating, let alone thinking that looking for a job is like dating, but it is. And part of that is very exciting because it means that we're becoming, you know, you think about dating nowadays, and it is scary, but there are a lot of different ways to do it. And it's, you know, just I think hiring is happening in the same way that before COVID, it's funny. I think we will always, from a hiring standpoint, talk about pre-COVID and post-COVID. But things have changed and the demand for how people take on jobs. I mean, you know, when we entered the world of dating on a cell phone, it was I can swipe left and right, I can have immediate kind of knowing, and that's what candidates want in a job market. And so it's exciting. I think it's a little interesting to hear it compared to dating, but they're not wrong.

Zohra 3:57

It is becoming similar to I believe that there is this human element in the hiring process, but there is that ATS applicant tracking system. I want to start with that.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

Is absolutely so can you can you speak a little bit about what I am hoping first and foremost to kind of throw out there? So when you hear ATS or applicant tracking system, first and foremost, what I think people should know is just because a company is using an applicant tracking system, not all of them are created equal. So applicant tracking systems are truly exactly that. It is a way to track your candidates through the hiring process. Some absolutely use AI technology and have those resume keyword searches, but not all do. And so I can tell you, I've been working in recruiting, like I mentioned, since 2016. And the first company I worked for was in a completely different industry than I'm in now. But we had an applicant tracking system, but that applicant tracking system had really no capabilities when it came to keyword searches. And so the human aspect behind recruiting was absolutely there because the applicant tracking system was really more of a way for the recruiting team simply to keep organized and to really be able to funnel applications in, be able to look through them. I will tell you, I have been recruiting for quite some time and I go through every single resume. Zora, when I found your resume, we had posted the tech writer role. Tech writers are one of the roles that we tend to get sometimes hundreds of applications within 24 hours. And even at Blackbot, I can tell you we have an applicant tracking system. We use something called workday, but not all companies have the money to spend on the fancy AI technology that just does the, hey, I'm gonna run keywords. And if I match keywords, those are my top candidates. Company like Blackbot, we are a very successful SaaS company. And I will tell you, my recruiting colleagues are looking through every single resume by hand. They spend the time doing that. And so it really still is very human, I think pre-COVID and even post-COVID.

Zohra 6:06

Wow. Thank you for sharing that because I thought all ATS systems were made equal. So what you have sort of told us is that no, they are not made equal. And then the human element to the hiring process. So I'm trying to kind of from a candidate perspective, from my perspective, who wants to be hired, I don't have empathy for a recruiter. But what you have shared is that you may get hundreds of applications, and now I can understand how I can get into your shoes and sort of that ATS can be my friend. Because if you have to go through, I don't know how many thousands of applications if you're getting them, that's not easy. So then you definitely want to have an ATS, and then you definitely, as a candidate, I want to make sure that I have some of those keywords. But you know, we are trying to move beyond the ATS and talk about the human element here. Yes. So I want to ask you, you know, now when when you hired, when you're trying to fill a position and you're getting these hundreds of applications, if you're not relying on the AI, then if you have to go through those hundreds of applications, how do you decide if the candidate is a good fit or not?

SPEAKER_02 7:14

I will tell you a lot of it, Zora, is what comes on our side as recruiters. So if you're working with a recruiter who we like to call ourselves a black bot instead of recruiters, we call each other talent advisors because that's really our job with the managers. And when we're going through these resumes and we don't have the help of an AI tool, which I will tell you would love, I think most recruiters would absolutely, you know, if we could raise our hands to have some kind of help there. But what we do is really we take the chance to work with the manager and really understand what is it that a candidate needs to have so that when we're looking at these resumes, not only can we pick out keywords, but what has happened, because I think a lot of folks out there they focus on keywords, is we have folks who apply that just drop keywords in their resume simply to get picked up by an AI. And then the problem is, is if the recruiter doesn't understand how those keywords come into play for the role, for example, you know, I was recruiting for a SQL DBA uh earlier in 2021 and we needed PowerShell experience. But actually having to understand how PowerShell was going to come into play for the role was much more important than just seeing someone drop the word PowerShell on their resume. So because I was looking through each and every one, I had to not only look for PowerShell, but then realize that the candidate knew how to utilize that tool in a way that we were looking for for the role. So it really becomes not only being able to spot those key words and phrases and potentially softwares that people are using or tools, it's really being able to understand that they know how to use them correctly and in a way that's going to really be transferable into the role with the company that they're applying for.

Zohra 8:53

I think you hit the nail on the head for me because I get asks from so many recruiters who don't understand anything that I do. And when they reach out to me, I'm like, where in my resume did you see that? And then I'm like, oh, maybe just the keyword. So that makes sense. When you're just that probably is where they're just totally relying on the ADS and not understanding what the manager is looking for. Now, I do want to share this. On my team on at Blackboard, we've had new writers join us. I'm not talking about myself per se, but other writers who've come from such interesting backgrounds. And I mean, they really are a talent that you're bringing on board with amazing backgrounds and experiences. And that can only happen, in my opinion, when a recruiter is able to bring that human element into the hiring process.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

I agree. I think I've been fortunate enough to work for a company where we do have a little bit more of the AI technology to pull in keywords. And what I can tell you is the candidates that we pull from the keyword searches are not always the best fits because again, you can drop a key. There are tools out there like job scan where you can put your resume in and put a job application and kind of run essentially a scan to find out do you have the keywords? And those tools are very helpful in some ways, but in others, they might necessarily not be helping you and setting you back because if you're just using keywords, but you can't actually really explain how you're using those tools within your resume or within a cover letter, which I know cover letter sounds like nobody asks for those anymore, but sometimes they still are asked for, and they're a chance to explain if a job is looking for a specific tool to really dive into that. But I will say, I think the ATS, it is an incredibly helpful tool from a talent acquisition standpoint from workflow and the organizational aspect. But it really, you know, even some of the greater ATS systems, the ability to search them just based on keyword, it's not there. And so recruiters are really, they're having to humanize this aspect. And I think something else to call out, and I know we will probably cover this, but when recruiters are looking to fill a role, we're absolutely looking for a technical skill set. That's, I mean, we need somebody who can do the job. However, companies, and we can talk about this, but this is kind of how the shift for me has happened. But we're looking now for people who can work remotely and can fit into a company culture. And so it's not just about a technical skill anymore. It's really, you know, we want to make sure that you are a fit across the board with our work style, with our workforce strategy and how we are doing things. So I think that ATS, it's funny how it always becomes kind of the thing we we want to appease and we want to please the ATS. We want to have the right keywords. But I will tell you, I think most large companies still very much have a human aspect behind their recruiting and then what happens behind the scenes.

Zohra 11:49

Everything that you're saying, it has sparked so many new questions in my mind. But the best thing that I've loved is the humanizing of this whole process. It's a human-to-human connection. A few notes. One of the things that I want to get out of the way is is a cover letter important when a person is applying?

SPEAKER_02 12:07

So, what I will say is most companies nowadays are not going to require or request a cover letter. But in my opinion, that's your chance to set yourself apart. You have multiple other ways to do that. Obviously, you can do LinkedIn outreach, you can network, and I know we'll talk about that. But having that cover letter, I will say it's because it's not as common anymore. When I see one, I'm tempted to click it and open it because I think sometimes when something is not required, but can still be a way to share your excitement for a potential job opening, it shows recruiters, again, who are reading through hundreds of resumes that, hey, you've gone the extra mile when something wasn't required of you, but you want to take a second to essentially explain to the person behind the screen who's reading all of these resumes why you think that you could have a little bit more potential than other candidates. So I think if it's not required on a job application, you do not have to do a cover letter. But I see these as an opportunity to make yourself stand out because they're not required anymore.

Zohra 13:10

That's great. And so it's not going to harm you, but if you can't set yourself up for success, it's your way of getting your voice in because a resume can be pretty, pretty, I think, emotionless, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:22

Yes. Unless you are in a field where you have really the ability to get creative within your resume, it is. It is a list of your accomplishments, and that's what we want to see. However, sometimes those LinkedIn messages, not as easy to find the right recruiter. I mean, some companies have, I mean, we at Blackbot have a less than 20 team of recruiters, but some organizations have 40 to 50 plus recruiters. And so finding the recruiter to connect with on LinkedIn can be sometimes a shot in the dark. But you know, if you're submitting a cover letter with your application, when that recruiter is reviewing your resume, 90% of the time in the ATS, your cover letter is right there with it. And so it's really a little bit more of an opportunity. A LinkedIn note, you might not ever get it into the right hands, but a cover letter through an applicant tracking system, it's usually going to get into the right hands.

Zohra 14:11

Oh, great. That's a great, great tip.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

I'm sure everybody can benefit from this advice. Yes. It's just, I think looking for folks on LinkedIn to connect with is still absolutely important. But I know, I mean, when I've looked for jobs in the past, I've connected with a recruiter thinking, oh, okay, maybe this is the individual who posted the job that I applied for and have never gotten a response. I understand because I get outreach sometimes for folks applying to roles that I don't recruit on. And so it's hard. I do my best to forward those messages along, but it sometimes gets lost in transition. Whereas if, you know, Zora, when you applied, if I'm looking at your resume and you had submitted something, it would pop up right there. It gives me a chance to read everything all in one go.

Zohra 14:52

Got it, got it. Great, great advice there. Again, we are kind of I'm I'm I'm jumping a little here and there, but I want to get these questions out of the way. Once the candidate has been hired, does writing a thank you note to the interviewers? What is your take on that?

SPEAKER_02 15:10

So uh I, as someone who is behind the scenes organizing that whole process, I will always appreciate a thank you note. This is another thing like a cover letter, where I think I don't know that it necessarily ties to the pandemic, but I think maybe just hiring in general has changed post-pandemic. But I used to see a lot more thank you notes pre-pandemic. And part of that was because we were doing interviews in person and people would do kind of the nifty tip of, hey, bring a couple thank you letters with you. You can address them before you leave the building and then leave them with, you know, front office staff and ask them to pass them out. Nowadays, I don't get nearly as many thank you notes as I used to. And that's not a deal breaker for me. And however, I think a thank you note, again, that is a chance for you as a candidate to reiterate your excitement for a job opportunity. I think that's also your opportunity as a candidate if you have additional questions or you want to know more about the interview process. That's your moment and that's your chance to make that connection. I will say, as a recruiter, I very much appreciate when my candidates are communicative with me. I like to know that they wrapped up an interview and that they enjoyed it as much as the hiring managers did. Because if not, I wonder, oh no, did we not answer something that was, you know, critical for them? So I think getting a note, even if it is short and sweet, I know that there's, you know, the template out there of send a note and connect back to something in the interview. And it doesn't even always need to be that intricate. It can truly just be, Zora, it was so great to talk to you today. I was already excited for the role. I'm even more excited now. I look forward to hearing from you again soon.

Zohra 16:46

I, as a practice, my husband has advised me when I started looking for jobs early on in my career. That was one of his advice. I have kept it in practice, and it has some people have responded back to me and some haven't. But that's my way of saying thank you for your time, for considering me. In some cases, it has also helped me. Let's say there was a question in the interview that I couldn't answer. I can go back and say, hey, you know what? I'm sorry I couldn't answer, but thank you for asking this, and this is how I can answer it now. So it was, it allowed me to close that conversation in a sense.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Yes, absolutely. And I think that more people should take advantage of that. If you can't answer a question in an interview and you find yourself thinking about it after the fact and you've got that perfect answer, you know it happens to all of us in this situation. You don't know what to say, and then you're taking a shower later that night and you're like, oh wow, if only I had said this, write that to the recruiter, write it to the manager. Let them know that, hey, I've been thinking about this job after the interview, and I want to let you know that I thought more about what you asked me. I think it's very similar to the cover letter in that when not a lot of people are sending thank you notes, that's your chance to stand out.

Zohra 17:56

Yes, it is. That's again great conversations. So now we are going to shift gears. We need to go back to the very first part of the process. How do you find your candidates once the job has been posted? Let's start from there.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Yes. So every company is going to have a different recruiting process. Here at Blackbot, we believe in that talent advisor model. And so really it's working with that manager to really understand what they're looking for. And with the current job market, we are fortunate enough that we are able to post these jobs and usually get quite a few applicants within the first 24 to 48 hours. We absolutely have teams that will go on LinkedIn, go on Indeed, they'll do campaigns. So when you're seeing job postings come up and they may be considered sponsored or kind of boosted, that's because companies are paying for that to happen. But really, we are very fortunate with the current job market that most of our candidates come in just through applications via LinkedIn. We were fortunate enough to just completely upgrade our job site. So that is a huge thing. If you're looking at a company and looking at their career page, take a note of that. Look to see if they have what many companies will call a talent community, because a lot of the times that's where we find our applicants as well. So we have kind of two routes of doing this. We either will look and see who has applied for the role, and then we'll start going through their resumes, looking to see if they're a fit. Or if we have that talent community, like we do have and like many companies have, essentially that's an opportunity for you as a candidate. If you were on Blackbot's website looking for jobs and say, just nothing was there right now, but you've decided this is a company that I could be a fit for. So you can join this talent community and they'll send you emails, let you know when a technical writer role has been posted. And so we leverage that talent community. And what we'll do is when we post a technical writer role, we'll go back into that talent community. And anyone who has mentioned that they're interested in technical writing, we'll send them an email and let them know, hey, now's your chance. We have an opening. So we are both kind of passively recruiting and waiting for folks to come to us, but we absolutely are out there proactively reaching out to folks who have let us know in the past that Blackbot is of interest to them.

Zohra 20:12

And I think the one question that I should probably have asked you before that is how do you even come up with that job description? But you did sort of allude to that. Is there anything like else you would like to add?

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Recruiters are absolutely involved in the creation of a job description. Our hiring managers, we work closely with them, and this is where that advisor title comes in to really be able to understand. And I think you mentioned it perfectly. And as a recruiter, I hate to hear this, but I know it's out there. Not all recruiters understand the roles that they're recruiting for. And part of that is because volume and bandwidth. And a lot of the times recruiters are covering many roles. And so it's just, hey, we've got to get good candidates in. But certain organizations, and I'm fortunate enough to be a part of that kind of an organization, we really take the time to sit down with the hiring manager, walk through the job description, and not only understand what that job description is, but understand how does this person potentially interact with cross-functional partners? How are they going to need to be able to be successful on their own in the first 30 days, the first 90 days, the first six months? So we really try to understand a lot more than just what's going to be appealing to the manager to make a hiring decision. We want to truly set someone up for a career path at our organization. It's going to be a combination of your talent advisor and your hiring manager creating that job description, kind of narrowing down years of experience and what level that role should be. And then from there, we usually will go ahead and make sure everything's ready to go, and then we'll get those things posted. And again, some companies are going to do boosted postings on LinkedIn indeed. Some will only have their career sites. It really is going to depend on the organization that you're looking at.

Zohra 21:54

Thank you. I should probably start including more of this word, quote unquote, in my vocabulary. Talent because this humanizes the process? It's not, you're not just looking for a head count or a role to fill, but it you're bringing on a person, which is awesome. Now, as you start, once the job description is written up and you've sort of understood as a recruiter what you're trying to fill. Now, at a company like Blackbird, it's a big company. Do referrals take more, I guess, importance or precedence over an outside applicant?

SPEAKER_02 22:31

Again, this will vary based on organization. At Blackbod, it's not necessarily that it takes precedent over other candidates, but we absolutely believe in if you're a referral and you have been really essentially asked to apply or suggested to apply by someone who's a current employee, we want to make sure that we're connecting with you. So we absolutely have, we call it kind of our service level agreement, our SLA, but we have a little bit of a different SLA for referrals. And that is again, because we believe if someone within our company has taken the time to reach out to a colleague or a family member or a friend to say that they should also look at BlackBod, we want to make sure that we're getting back to those folks in the most timely manner possible. Now, that does not always mean that that person is going to be a fit. I think sometimes folks think referral means that you are, hey, you're a shoe-in. Not necessarily the case. A referral simply means we know that you have been specifically essentially requested to make this application. And so we're going to get back to you. I think that's where sometimes networking, it absolutely can help you out because a lot of companies will. I mean, I can tell you we have a report that we pull weekly to look at our referrals to make sure that no one is getting less than a 24 to 48 hour turnaround. Because again, we have a referral program at Blackbot. If we're asking employees to refer potential employees to us, we want to make sure that we're we're answering either.

Zohra 23:54

That's an invaluable tip, uh, you know, Olivia, because I know that most companies encourage referrals and the why. And of course, it may vary a little bit here and there, but like you said, you know, you definitely sort of take the extra time to go over those referrals.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

We've kind of gone all over the place, which that's about how recruiting works. We're a little all over the place. So it's fair.

Zohra 24:18

Okay, since we've gone all over the place, I think maybe, maybe I need to rein it in. Maybe I should allow you to sort of take us through what that process is like.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

Yeah, I can walk us through. So I think it's crazy because there is, there's so much that goes on behind the scenes before a candidate may even be in contact with a talent advisor or a recruiter. And so it's it's good. It's good that we're covering this because I think as a candidate, you're not getting to see any of the we like to call it chaos because it is that's going on to kind of get that job ready. And so once we have officially posted that position, obviously, again, in the job market we're currently in, job applications are coming in quickly. I mean, we will post a job and it's it's great, but it's also uh it's it's you know a little intimidating. We have hundreds of applicants within 24 to 48 hours. And so once that has really kind of kicked off that process, that's where your recruiter as a human individual is going to spend sometimes multiple hours of their day combing through resumes. Now, I will tell you because I think it's important to call out, just because we're not utilizing AI to look at keywords, it doesn't mean that we aren't looking at key factors. So a lot of people, I think this is always even for me when I'm applying for jobs. When you apply for a job, a lot of the times it will ask compensation requirements. What are you hoping to make? All I will say here is be realistic. If you have a set compensation that you are looking to make, don't lowball yourself in that range just to get yourself an interview, because all that is going to happen is you are going to find yourself in those interview stages, then getting told again by the recruiter that the compensation requirements fall within a certain range. And so I think be a little bit strategic with your compensation. If you're able to type in negotiable, or if you're able to type in, would like to talk about during interview, do that. If you're forced to put a range, choose a realistic range. Don't do something that's going to make you regret putting in that range when you potentially get to offer stages. We do look at salary, and part of that is because, and I would hope I think it's it's a tough conversation, but every role within a company is put into a salary range. And those recruiters that you are speaking with, although we would love to say we have the kind of power to really affect that compensation range, it is something that we are usually told by a finance partner or by someone else in the organization. And so those ranges are important. And so when we have to look at candidates, a lot of the times we will look at that. And that is simply because we don't want to waste anyone's time who we can't potentially afford to make a decent offer to. So I will say we do look at compensation. We'll also look at things, I think pre-pandemic, we'd look at things like location. So obviously, so I think, you know, you're obviously in Texas, I'm in New Hampshire, neither one of us live where Blackbot is headquartered. And a year ago, that might have been an issue. But now, obviously, we can work remotely. So I think, you know, if you look to apply for a role and they're asking that you come into the office in Charleston, South Carolina, and you live in New Hampshire, they might disposition your resume. And disposition is just a fancy word for essentially saying they'll decline your resume. Um, so recruiters are going to be looking through all of that. But again, this is all looking by individually clicking into every single resume, looking at the questions that someone has answered during their interview process. We really, we're diving into your full, essentially, profile as a candidate. What we do then, a lot of the times, I think this is where I know we kind of talked about this at the very beginning, but the interview process is changing. And what used to be a phone screen now is a video interview. And I know we talked about too. I graduated in 2013. And so when I graduated from JMU, the company that I worked for right out of school, I did a digital interview. And I remember doing a couple of digital interviews when I was first looking for a role. And it was through Higher View, which funny enough happens to be the same system we use here at Blackbot. And so it's, you know, kind of eye-opening to see this tool has been around for going on 10 years, but really it has now become it's a staple within the interview process. And so I would say to any candidate out there, if you're not comfortable with video interviewing, that's okay. There are so many tools that you can use to practice. LinkedIn has a great tool that you can use, but get familiar with virtual interviewing, get comfortable with it because that's a lot of the times when we talk about AI and technology, that's more where a lot of companies are bringing in. And it's really in more of that digital interview space. And it's the, I'm sure Zora, I think you remember you probably got a higher view for the technical writer role. And it's essentially, hey, we've looked at your resume. A human has looked at this and they think it's great. And while we would love to have an introduction conversation with you, we're actually going to send you a couple of questions. We'd love if you can record some answers for us, send it back, we're going to review it right away, and then we'll get back in touch with you. That is where I think when we talk about AI technology or being able to utilize kind of these keywords, that's going to be really where you want to step up and utilize is within the higher view because or a digital interview platform, because we ultimately are going to go back and watch those interviews and we want to hear you talking. We've seen your resume. We know you've put those words on your resume, but that's your chance to really kind of explain what. So yeah, I'll stop there if you want to ask me any questions about that part.

Zohra 29:57

But please, please don't stop because I think I would have never asked you this question because although we talk, I mean, post-pandemic, I mean, we are still in the pandemic, but during these times, video interviews, digital interviews have definitely taken on, or they're definitely much more, I guess, common. They are the way to go. But I would have not known that, you know, sometimes you have to sort of do your interview and send the recording, and that could increase your chances. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Yes. And I think a lot of people, and I understand because I think video interviewing, it's intimidating. I don't like it, and I've been doing it since my job search started. But I think what people don't realize is that it's an opportunity. I can tell you, Zora, for I would say of the if I pick 10 resumes where I find a role and I say, okay, I like these 10 individuals, I'm going to push them all to a higher view or a digital interview. Sometimes 50% of those people don't complete that interview and just cut themselves out of the process. And we don't know, we're still learning because obviously this is newer, but we're still learning. But there are people out there that if they get that step in an interview, they're not interested anymore. And we're trying to figure out is it because of a discomfort with the tool? Is it because of a lack of personalization, which we do understand to a level, but also at we feel, and again, this is at BlackBot, we feel if we're at least picking your resume and we're not doing that with AI technology, if we're just asking you to do a video interview, it's truly because we have over 250 jobs posted right now, and we want to make sure that before we take someone's time to have a conversation, that, hey, we just understand you a little bit better. So I think it's a huge opportunity where you might think, oh my gosh, I got this digital interview, and it means that they don't really want to talk to me. It's not the case. It means that we really want to hear from you and we hope that you take the time to complete the digital interview so that we can then really just dive a little bit deeper into who you are. And then from there, I will tell you. I think what's amazing is the digital interview has almost seemed to take the place of what used to be a phone screen with your recruiter and a phone screen with your hiring manager. Because the face-to-face interaction, I mean, you and I, I think we've experienced this. It gives you an ability to connect as if you were coming into the office. And those kinds of interviews, I hate to say it because I love those kinds of interviews, but I don't see them happening in the future. I think we, as a talent advisor group at Blackbot, we spoke last week about do we ever think interviews are going to be back on site? And are we going to have that experience? And it doesn't sound like it. It sounds like we are going to continue with the digital interview. And obviously, higher view is a tool we use at the beginning. And then we use things like Microsoft Teams and WebEx and Zoom. But it really does sound like this is going to be the interview process moving forward for companies. And so I think as a candidate, it might it might feel weird, but it's time to make yourself feel confident. I mean, I feel silly, but I invested in like one of those ring lights for my setup because all of a sudden, you know, you think when you used to go to an interview, you'd get dressed up, you present yourself. And so if you're interviewing from home, you're essentially doing the same thing. You're just doing it in front of a computer. We understand that digital interviews are still new for a lot of people. And so there's so much grace in this process that I think don't be intimidated by it. You know, I have so much respect for folks who say, I've never used this tool before, and it's intimidating. But rather than just pull myself out of the interview process, I'm gonna try it. And we have people that they are doing these interviews and they forget to answer the question because they think they're recording and they're not, and there are technology issues all over the place. But you know what? Those are the people that we reach out to and say, thank you so much for even just trying to do this. We know that it's a different interview process than we had a year ago. But as the world changes, we have to adapt with it and we have to make sure that you know we can hire still in a very efficient way and making sure that we get the best candidates. And so long story short, if you're not comfortable with video interviewing, practice because it's really it's it's gonna be what we're using, I think, for the foreseeable future. And it can be a really great tool if you just get comfortable with it.

Zohra 34:21

Everything that you said, Olivia. Uh, you know, I think when you called me, we had a phone screening. I don't believe you used the hire view tool. So I didn't have to do that. Oh, good. Um, but yes, we did have the the video interview. But I think again, the humanizing of the whole hiring process that comes through in this conversation to me. And I think that is the future going forward. And both sides have to adapt and change the way we approach this process. So it's good, it's good we are talking about it. You know, nothing is written in stone.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

We'll probably change again in six months. And I mean, as new technology, I think we can all say Zoom and Microsoft Teams and WebEx, I mean, those tools have come a significant way in the last year as we've all had to really heavily rely on them. And so I think we do our best to make sure that these video interviews are still giving employees and potential employees as much insight into the company as possible. And I think I know we talked about a couple of questions that we were maybe going to cover today. And I think this is where we mentioned the interview process and what that looks like and asking. I think as a candidate, it is always okay for a candidate to ask what the interview process looks like, but now more than ever, absolutely ask. What is it? What does the interview process entail? If this role is a hundred percent remote role, I'm assuming I'm gonna be meeting with people virtually. And what does that look like? What tools do you utilize? Those are questions that absolutely can come up. And I think if those tools and that process doesn't match what you're looking for, I think that's an okay place to say, either, hey, can I raise my hand and say I'm not super comfortable with this technology? We have people do that all the time. I have folks that say, I would prefer not to do a video interview. Can I do a phone screen first? And we will do our best to accommodate because we know it's new, it's new for all of us. So I think that's the other piece that I really would want to leave you with today, Zora. And I feel like you know this because you and I and the relationship we've built. But recruiters and talent advisors and the folks that do what I do, we really, really want to be nothing more than advocates for candidates and potential new employees. We do this job because we love it and because we really do find satisfaction at the end of the day of getting someone into a role that not only is a good fit for them from a technical proficiency standpoint, but something that gives them opportunity to grow and to further their career and their personal development as well. And so I think, you know, when you're talking with a recruiter about a role, if you're passionate about that role and you're passionate about the company, the recruiter is going to match that energy because they they're excited too. And so if you know you've got questions about the interview process or the interview process is intimidating, voice that to your recruiter. Your recruiter is there to be an advocate for you. And I think I know, Zara, we've had this conversation outside of the podcast, but you can learn a lot in your interview process as a candidate about the company that you could potentially be working for. And if the interview process isn't aligning and you're having red flags in that interview process, in the same way that a hiring manager would say, Oh, I don't know that this is working, you can say that as a candidate. You know, now is it is a candidate market. There are jobs, and and I'm sure people have heard, you know, about the great resignation and this just ability to say, work has changed and the way that we do our work has changed. And whether it's wanting to work remotely, whether it is wanting to go into the office and having the ability to do that, you as a candidate get to make that decision and kind of hold recruiters accountable to make sure that the process and what you're getting is what you're looking for because recruiters want to get you. It's a fight for talent right now.

Zohra 38:15

Absolutely. When we had the first phone call, when I received that first phone call from you, we ended up having a conversation. And I think I asked two questions about the company because I had heard about Blackbot before and the employees that are currently there represent the company. And I I was fortunate to know or have met somebody, and that conversation was great. So, yes, you and I have had this conversation, just like you are trying to screen a candidate, a candidate, or the talent is trying to screen the company as well. And right. And then again, like you said, you can be an advocate, and you are my foot in the door. So asking as many questions as I can is my opportunity to learn and not be passively just going with the flow, especially in today's market.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Yes, exactly. Well, and I think I think it's funny, candidates will think recruiters are just, you know, we're just I've I've heard the word puppet or like we're just doing what we're told and we're just helping the process. And really, you know, it's not that. I think recruiters and talent advisors, we care about the folks that we bring in. And because we spend so much time with the hiring manager trying to understand what they need, it is, it's about so much more than just, I feel like people say the phrase like getting a warm body in the seat. And it is, it is more than that. You can hire anyone. And then I think that is it's great. If you can, if you jump into a role and it doesn't matter about company culture or any of that, that's okay. You know, hey, some of us just are okay with that. But for those of us that say, I want to find my next home for a career, this is definitely take advantage of asking questions in the interview process and interview the recruiter, interview the people that you speak with and make sure that they are also bringing to the table what you want to see. Because if you don't ask those questions, sometimes you won't get those answers. And that's not to say that the recruiter or the talent advisor you're working with is not doing a good job. But again, not all companies are the same and recruiting processes are different. So I think you've got to advocate for yourself, you've got to be willing to ask questions. I always say, I think you learn so much during that process. And if a recruiter, if a recruiter isn't willing to answer your questions or isn't willing to be flexible, it says things about the company. And I think that, you know, ultimately it may be a chance for you to say, hey, well, if I'm encountering these issues that don't align with what I'm looking for at the initial process, number one, either that's questions to ask the hiring manager as you continue the process, or number two, maybe that's your chance to say, hey, this actually isn't the right fit for me. I appreciate your time. Thank you for letting me ask tough questions. And we can go our separate ways. Nothing wrong with that.

Zohra 41:00

That I think is a natural segue to the next question that I had in mind is I've been reading on LinkedIn again that sometimes the hiring process can be long drawn. And you've touched upon some of the red flags from a talent or from an applicant perspective. Sometimes you may not hear back from the recruiter. Oh, yes.

unknown 41:22

Yeah.

Zohra 41:23

So I'm basically, I think I'm really from an applicant perspective, what are the red flags that should tell a candidate that, hey, you know what, that this may not be a good fit, apart from the ones that you've already mentioned, which is great.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

Yes, yes. I mean, oh, the the interview process is uh it's tough because I think it's one of those things where obviously as a company from a talent acquisition standpoint, we want to be diligent. We want to make sure that, you know, by the time we've brought someone on board onto the team that we are sure that they're a good fit from both the candidate perspective, from the hiring team perspective. But that process also should not take weeks and weeks and weeks. And I think first things first to mention when it comes to interview process is it is going to differ based on the roles you are applying for. If you are applying for more of an entry-level role, you absolutely might only have one or two steps. And it might be more of a, hey, we're going to interview you. We want to know what your future career aspirations are. And then, hey, we're going to bring you in and really focus on your training and your development. You're going to have other roles that are senior level, manager level, director level, where it's going to be a little bit more of an intricate process because there's a little bit more that we have to dig into. And we want to make sure that, you know, this is not just, hey, this might be your first role and we're going to train you up, but hey, we want you to come in and potentially train us and teach us things. And so I think first and foremost, be realistic about the kind of job you apply for and understanding what that process should look like. And then I think really I would recommend, and I almost am always shocked when I have a phone screen or an interview with a candidate and they don't ask me what the interview process looks like, because that's something that as a candidate, you absolutely should want to know about. You should want to know what those time kind of turnarounds look like. And I will say, I think recruiters are going to sometimes give you unrealistic timelines. And truth be told, the intentions are good. But when you are working with hiring managers and sometimes multiple hiring managers, it can be like herding cats to get feedback on candidates. And so I think asking for that interview process or that timeline kind of gives you a little bit of accountability with your recruiter and allows you to then feel a little bit more confident when say, hey, we had our initial phone call on Monday of this week. I told you I'd be back to you before end of week. If you haven't heard from me, it's more than okay if I gave you that expectation to reach back out and say, Hey, Olivia, you let me know that we might close the loop by end of week. And I haven't heard from you, super excited. Let me Know what's happening. It's really, I think, if anything, it's a chance for you. Now, I think when it comes to red flags, if a recruiter cannot tell you what an interview process looks like or is just kind of saying, oh, it's up in the air, or we'll see. I personally would look at that as a red flag because I think it worries me if the hiring manager and the team haven't strategically thought through who they, you know, want this person to talk to. It kind of worries me about, well, do they have the role really situated? If they're not able to kind of talk through what the process is going to be, what does that mean for when I get in the role? But I think also sometimes recruiters, they're going to have a general idea. And most of the time, again, we're advocates for candidates. We're going to tell you, hey, the process looks like this so far. There's still some stuff up in the air. You might have to talk to more than one individual. But even when I'm unsure of an interview process, I always try to give the candidate at least some insight because I like to think about how I feel in that process. And it's that hurry up and wait game. It's the, okay, I'm going to be polite and patient, but I also want to be persistent in a way because I don't want to be forgotten as a candidate. So I think if a recruiter can't share anything about an interview process, probably a little bit of a, hey, I'm curious what's happening here. But I also think if for an entry-level role or a role where, you know, it's kind of more junior level, if you're going through like a multi-week interview process or you're not getting feedback within, I would say, 24 to 48 hours after interviews, probably a red flag. I think it's always another good question to ask, what is the timing of wanting to bring someone on in this role look like? Because that will also tell you. Because sometimes an interview process is expedited simply because we say we need to have someone sooner rather than later. Other times, interview processes may be more lengthy because, hey, we have someone retiring. And so they're retiring in January of 2022 and we're just looking for a fit to come in now, but really they could start anywhere from October. So it's going to be, it can vary. But that's why I think as a candidate, it is absolutely your opportunity to ask what does the timeline look like? And kind of then really not uh pull your own red flags from that, but I think you can as a candidate start thinking about okay, if they say they need somebody to start in a couple of weeks, but I'm going to be interviewing for a couple of weeks, how is that going to work? I also I also think, and this is my personal opinion, companies, if you're at a current company and you're looking to leave to go to another company, that new company should be allowing you to give notice at your current company. I am never a fan of when people say, Well, can you start next week? And we're just giving you an offer right now. I think that's it. Should be a company's expectations of you as a new employee is what they're going to expect of you as a tenured employee. And so if they're not expecting you to give two weeks, it's because they probably have folks that don't give two weeks and just up and leave. And so I think that's a good thing to think about if they're expecting you to do that. You know, that makes sense.

Zohra 47:06

It's something that makes absolute sense. I mean, oh my gosh, so much of so many nuggets in there in terms of first of all, what role you're applying for, right? That would dictate or that would determine what the hiring process will be like. But then as an applicant, you are empowered to ask those questions no matter which role you're applying for. So if you don't ask those questions, you're not going to get the answers. And then you might just end up creating these red flags. But if you ask those questions and you're not getting the answer, that definitely is a red flag. Now I remember in our during my hiring process, you had given me a timeline. So I knew that it is not going to be a specific time turnaround, that there is going to be a set number of days or weeks before we are going to communicate with each other. So you sort of set that expectation and then we could communicate from that point on, or I set that expectation with you because it's not just the recruiter who's setting that expectation, but also the applicant should set that expectation. Let's say the applicant is not going to be available for a week and the recruiter is going to reach out. So if the process is moving forward, the applicant also needs to keep in mind, hey, I need to set that expectation that I might not have a 24 to 48 hour turnaround.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

Right.

Zohra 48:15

How can we fit that into this whole hiring process? So you got to basically keep that transparent communication, open, open communication going at all times.

SPEAKER_02 48:24

Yes, be open with your recruiter. And again, I mean, I think I will keep going back to we are advocates for the candidates. And so realizing, right, if you're going to be away or you're unable to get back to us, I think all of that is good to know. And it also, there is nothing wrong with as a candidate, if a recruiter has given you a timeline because you've asked for it and you have not heard from that recruiter. As a recruiter, it doesn't make me frustrated if someone reaches out and says, Hi, Olivia, you told me the expectation was this and I haven't heard from you. If anything, that makes me say, Oh my gosh, you're right. I haven't gotten back to you and I do owe you feedback. Let me track down the hiring manager or whatever I need to do. So I think when we talk about this is a human role, recruiters are human. And I will tell you at any given time, my colleagues that I work with right now, they have 80 to 90 positions that they cover. And so imagine you're going through 80 to 90 positions that you are responsible for hand reviewing resumes. You're responsible for kind of working through this interview process, holding a timeline with individuals, getting back to them with feedback. And so I think that's the other thing. When we talk about that recruiters are human, that's another reason to ask for that timeline because we are human and we have so much going on that it is easy for us if a manager doesn't get back to us. And I will say sometimes that happens because managers also are very busy. It's not that we intentionally forget about candidates. It is that there are so many candidates that we're processing that sometimes we need that note from you. And that note does nothing other than say, oh, wow, that's awesome. She remembered that I told her this. She must have made a note of that. That's attention to detail. I appreciate that. And so, you know, it's funny as I looked back at our communication just to kind of relive, you know, what it was like. And it is, I think you had reached out to me because I owed you an answer and David was out of the office and you had followed up with a great note that was just yes, but it was, you know, it was one of those notes where it wasn't pushy. It was simply, you know, hi, I'm very excited to hear back. I know we had mentioned connecting. And I think at the end of the day, when you ask about that interview process, it gives you power to not only know about that process and set expectations for the recruiter, but it gives you the power to drive that interview process forward. If you've talked to the recruiter and you know that, hey, after my initial phone screen, I have a conversation with the manager and you've done your initial phone screen, send a note to the recruiter saying, I can't wait to talk to this hiring manager. I've been looking him or her up on LinkedIn and you know, I see that they do this. But use it to drive your interview process forward. Yeah, it's the more that you as a candidate can ask during your interview process, the better.

Zohra 51:06

That is uh first of all, thank I mean, I'm touched that you would even go back to the communication that we had. Thank you. It felt personal, it felt like a personal connection. That's what is coming through. You build bridges, you are an advocate. I mean, you're you're proving all of that in this conversation. And I personally felt that from the day I spoke with you on that phone screen. But it is true that you definitely this conversation is proof of that, that that's what a recruiter can be for you. But like you said, you know, you're trying to show your side of the picture because, like I said, that is not visible to me. And this communication is to build those bridges.

SPEAKER_02 51:47

Yes. Yes. And I think don't be intimidated by recruiters. I think that, you know, obviously you and I have built this great relationship. And I mean, you joined the team months ago and we still keep in touch. We do our meetups once a month, and that's why I love doing what I do. And that would be if you asked anyone on my team, I guarantee you they would tell you the same thing. It's because we are not only trying to bring people on board and find people with good technical skill sets, but we're trying to build relationships. We want people to join this team feeling like they are already a part of the family. And that's that's what a recruiter's job is. It is to essentially sell you on the company and make sure that by the time you maybe virtually step through the door on your first day, but we want to make sure that you are feeling just as excited as we are that you are there. It's asking these questions and using your recruiter and building a relationship with your recruiter. Those are all things that I would recommend. I have built relationships with candidates that have become employees. I've built relationships with candidates who might not have worked out and then have kept in touch with them and have reached out in the future when there's new opportunities. And guess what? Those people now work at BlackBod because we built a connection during their interview process. And, you know, that would be my recommendation. I think I know Zora, I don't know that we got to this question, but there was something about people will talk about an 80-20 rule of hey, I'm so blind.

Zohra 53:14

You want me to cover that really quick? That was my next question. That was my next question. Please do.

SPEAKER_02 53:19

Yes, okay. And I think this goes perfectly into that. So this kind of rule or this thought process is 80-20. And that is that we would spend 20% of our time looking on LinkedIn, looking on Indeed, looking for jobs and really specifically kind of scouting jobs, maybe applying for jobs, tailoring your resume to match a job, but that we would spend the other 80% connecting and building a cohort and building a network. And what I can tell you is it might seem silly, it might seem 20%, that's nothing to be looking for those jobs. But what you're gonna find is if you dedicate the 80% to building your network and really starting to find connections and just reaching out to a recruiter. You can reach out to a recruiter even if there's no job posted and just say, hi, I would love to be a part of your network because I see that you work for this company and I am passionate about X, Y, and Z that aligns with that company. And so I would love if you can keep me in the mind in mind for the future. Recruiters love that. That we are all about networking. And so I think you network, use that 80% because what's gonna happen is if you spend that time doing that, you're not gonna need to spend the 20% of your time on jobs because those jobs are going to come to you. Those jobs are going to come by the way of your network. They're going to come by the way of just casual conversations that you're having with recruiters. They're going to come from adding yourself to talent networks or building relationships. I mean, I think it really, it's one of those rules. The first time I heard it as a candidate myself, I thought, oh my gosh, I probably do like 50-50. So started doing a little bit less. And that's how I found my role at Blackbot. As a matter of fact, I was, was, had never heard of Blackbot, wasn't really sure what I was going to do in my career next. And someone in my network worked for Blackbot and just mentioned that, you know, he thought that I could do well here. And so I started planting the seed and did that in my role prior. I mean, I have always used the connection because I think I owe you, I owe that person a big thank you. So look, I owe him a big thank you too because I think back and I think, look, I mean, we're recruiting talent acquisition partners on our team right now and have hundreds of applications. And I think, oh my gosh, that means when I applied, there were probably hundreds of applications as well. And I will say my resume probably was reviewed because I was a referral and they have the 24 to 48 hour turnaround. And because I took the time to find a random recruiter on LinkedIn that worked at BlackBod, I sent her a note. I will also say when it comes to reaching out to people, to recruiters, be creative if you can. And I know that creativity is not for all of us. There are some of us who just it's being creative is not on the radar. And I get that. But when I say be creative, that can even come in the form. One of my favorite things that I have ever seen is I got a LinkedIn message from someone one day who took the time to simply pull up her camera on her laptop and she made me a video just saying, hi, Olivia. It's so nice to meet you via a computer. I was looking at a job posting and I think that I could be an amazing fit. And I know that you're gonna have hundreds of resumes. And so while you might not see my resume, I'm hoping you'll at least see this video that I've made you and that you'll give me a chance. It was phenomenal. I got the video and was like, what is this? And then it made me, I mean, I reached out to her. We we ended up hiring her, and it was just one of those opportunities that I thought, that's not rocket science. She didn't create anything that was out of the ordinary. She just hit record on her computer, built a video, sent it to me via LinkedIn that told me that she took the time to really look at the job and then also learn a little bit about me. And she got amazing.

Zohra 57:10

I mean, right? That that is amazing. I mean, yeah, and you know, we live in times where we have this opportunity to connect on LinkedIn, right? When in the decades prior have you had this one-on-one connection, right? This opportunity to build that rapport with a recruiter. So get creative. And you shared such an amazing story right there. I would have never thought about it.

SPEAKER_02 57:33

So me either.

Zohra 57:35

That's just amazing. That's just amazing. So well, kudos to this person.

SPEAKER_02 57:39

Right. Seriously, I told her I'm gonna steal your idea at some point. So kudos.

Zohra 57:44

Amazing, that's true. You know, we've gone through so many questions. I feel like we've covered a good good part of this whole process. There is one question that is, I think, a troubling one, a tricky one, but I'm gonna ask. There is this perception that once an applicant has reached their 40s or in their 40s, 45 and above, there is age discrimination. Do you have any insight or anything that you can share?

SPEAKER_02 58:13

Yeah, so I think, first of all, I hate to hear that because I think obviously age should not come into play when you are looking for a role, when you're going through the process. And so I hate that. However, after doing my own research, I found that you're absolutely right. I mean, not only I think we are hearing that from candidates who fall within that age range, but that when we're doing studies, we are finding more and more individuals who say, even as they approach that age, that they're worried about the potential discrimination or the bias that can come. And so I think the first thing that I will say is this is another piece where I think look for red flags within a company that you're interviewing with. I think if you are looking for a new role and you are putting things into play, like you want company culture to be important and you want the job itself to have growth potential. I think if you are worried or you have experienced any kind of age discrimination, make that a priority when you're looking for roles. Make it a priority to find a company that you know is going to be highlighting diversity and inclusion. Make sure that you're finding a company that has a culture that is not only looking to support its young employees, but is looking to support all employees in their growth. And I think if age is coming up in your interview, red flag. First of all, shouldn't even be asked. I think something that I will say too, know your local hiring rules and regulations. Different states have different laws put into play, especially with the pandemic. I think it has pushed some states to really advocate for their workers, which is great. But no, know what questions can and can't be asked in an interview. I can tell you right now, anything around your age, around how long you're planning to work, around retirement, none of it should be being asked in an interview. And so if those questions are coming up, I think that's your red flag to know, hey, maybe this isn't, maybe this isn't the right company for me. But I think also you absolutely don't have to answer those questions. Don't let them make you uncomfortable. Just deflect away from them. But I think if you are concerned about that, what I can tell you is most employers are not, they're not going to be asking questions that are going to bring your age into into play. And so I would like to say that I don't think that age discrimination is out there for most companies. Again, I only work for BlackBood right now. So I think it's hard to, you know, make that assumption. But I think some things that people can do if they want that can just make them feel more comfortable or if they're worried, I think when you're doing your resume, you don't need to put graduation dates. I know people think that that dates them by, you know, oh, you scroll all the way to the end of my resume and you can see what year I graduated. Pull the graduation date. It doesn't, if you're applying for a role that's requesting that you have eight to 10 years of experience and you've got that experience, but you're worried that your graduation date might affect that, pull the graduation date. Highlight what you got your degree in, highlight the school you went to, and then focus on your experience. Make sure that is the key piece. I think in the same way, during interviews, pay attention for key phrases. You know, if you're hearing companies that continuously are saying, we want high energy, we want like this, like ask them, you know, is that meeting something? Like, you know, I think companies, companies try to use words to get around what they're looking for. But I think really it should absolutely not be coming into play. And if you're experiencing it, I think it should raise, I think it should raise a red flag for that company, absolutely, because companies know better than to ask. It's like asking other questions that we know are off limits. But again, I do think it is as a candidate, especially now with remote work and being able to apply for roles, maybe not just where you're located, learn what hiring regulations are in play. Learn about Colorado as a state just came out with a new regulation earlier in 2021 where it is now required for a job posting, if it is in the state of Colorado, that they have to post salary ranges with job postings. That was never a thing. And and so, employers, if you are applying for a job in Colorado and that salary is not listed, raise your hand. Know your hiring regulations, be an advocate for yourself in the hiring process. Um would have thought of that.

Zohra 1:02:37

I mean, I never knew it. So what I mean, this is this is all great stuff, Olivia, because of course, like the landscape is changing. And the more aware that a candidate is, the more they will be able to learn about, they'll be equipped to ask those questions. So come informed to the hiring process, basically.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

Yes, yes, come informed and and don't be afraid to, if questions come up that make you uncomfortable, whether about age, I know also questions about compensation. The the question of compensation cannot be asked in the way of what are you currently making? The question we cannot ask that. It is illegal for us to ask that. So if recruiters are coming to you and saying, well, what are you currently making so I can know? You need to know that first of all, you can say, Well, I'm not comfortable answering that question. However, I'm happy to provide what my requirements are for a salary for me to consider making a move. But you don't know that unless you're informed. And so I would say, absolutely know what you need to know because not only will that help you, but it'll also make those red flags stand out a little bit more so that you as a candidate can say, hey, if someone's asking about my age in an interview, chances are, unfortunately, they're asking because that probably is part of a practice and it shouldn't be.

Zohra 1:03:55

Right. And it shouldn't be. Fantastic, fantastic insight, Olivia. You know, we've definitely gone way above our time, but I appreciate it because everything that you're sharing is so, so important, so significant and relevant to the whole the times that we live in. Is there anything, Olivia, that you would like to add?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:18

I think we've covered a lot of great information too. And I think nothing else that I can think of, but I think really what it comes down to is use recruiters as advocates for you during the hiring process. Be an advocate for yourself during the hiring process. Candidates, you know, I think you forget how much power you have at times. You know, yes, we absolutely have multiple candidates applying, but you know, at the end of the day, we want to make sure that a role is the right fit for an individual. And so it comes down to mutual, mutual satisfaction on both sides. And so I think being able to stand up for yourself and build relationships with your recruiters. I mean, I think case in point is us, Sarah. I mean, it's not difficult. We're not, we're not scary people, you know. We love to talk, we love to build relationships, we love to help other people. It's typically the recruiter, like, I swear we're all carbon copies of each other. You end up in recruiting if you are a certain kind of person. And so take advantage, take advantage of our, you know, of what we love to do and and take advantage of the ability to have someone because I think, you know, not all recruiters are created equal, but the ones that are out there that are willing to really fight for you, they're gonna be in your corner long after you start your role. They're gonna be in your corner potentially for the rest of your career to help you to continue network because that's you know, it's what we love to do.

Zohra 1:05:47

That's an amazing way to end this, is that you are in our corner and you are our advocates. I'm so, so happy that you came on my show and shared all these amazing perspectives, insights, everything that I would have never known. Oh, of course. Well, thank you so much, Olivia. Thank you so much for taking the time. It was a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:09

I could not agree more. Look, there is no one else I would want to spend a Saturday morning with, but I really thank you for having me and thank you for allowing me to share, I think, some of the insight. And and obviously, we are in an ever-changing world, so things might change again. But I'm glad that I was able to give some insight to the human side of recruiting.

Zohra 1:06:30

Thank you. Thank you. On that note, Olivia, have a great Saturday.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:34

Thank you, you two, Zora.

Zohra 1:06:36

I hope you enjoyed this episode. Subscribe to the podcast on your favorite app, including Apple, Google, or Spotify. Follow me on LinkedIn or visit us at www.inside techcom.show for the latest updates. Catch you on another episode.