Zohra 0:08

Hello listeners. In season two, we get the scoop on how you can build your resume, interview for success, and ultimately advance in your career. This is Inside Techcom with Zahramatabana. Let's get started. Hi, Jack. It's good to have you back.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

I was gonna say thank you for inviting me back. Um, I always love our conversations.

Zohra 0:31

Thank you, thank you. And I'm looking forward to talking about interview strategies on today's episode. So, coming back, you know, to our theme for the second season, we talked about resumes in the previous episode. In this episode, I want to talk about interviewing. Again, our audience is going to be somebody that is new to the field, career changers, and technical writers who are advancing within the field. How would you prep for it?

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Before I answer your question, sure, I'm going to lay a foundation as I often do. And that is, you're interviewing them just as much as they're interviewing you. Right? If this is what you're going to be doing for your life, you should make sure that it's an environment you enjoy with people that you enjoy working with, and that's a good career move for you. And that takes a lot of the nervousness about am I good enough? When your viewpoint should be, are they good enough for me? So again, harder to do when you're entry level than when you've been around the block a few times. But the earlier in your career that you adopt that viewpoint, the happier you're going to be and the more successful you're going to be. So that would be one thing I would tell everyone, even junior to entry-level people. Now you asked about preparing for it.

Zohra 1:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

First thing you need to know is know something about the company at which you're interviewing. If you're going to interview and they go, So, what's your understanding of what we do? And you go, I don't know. Clearly, there's no initiative there, there's no curiosity. So do your homework. Second thing, if you can find somebody who already works there and get the lowdown on the environment, the hiring manager. And here's one of those war stories that illustrate this. Lance Galine, who was the president of the Sacramento STC chapter at one point, worked at a company called Delta Dental. And this was a few years ago. And the manager at the time really appreciated what I call documentation by the pound. The bigger the manual it is, the better it must be. And his friend was applying for a job there. So he briefed her on this. She literally brought to the interview a little red wagon filled with really big manuals that she dropped on the conference table with a resounding FUD and got the job. Because she asked, What is this particular manager looking for in a tech writer?

Zohra 2:56

Huh. Cat into the audience.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

What wait a minute, hold on. We talked about know thy audience again? What?

Zohra 3:02

Know thy audience. So before we move forward with this conversation, I had never thought about me interviewing, but being the interviewed one. So you flipped that conversation and you've sort of given me some control here. I just wanted to sort of bring that to the fore.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

I'm doing the happy dance in my chair.

Zohra 3:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

All right. So you brought up a good point about control. I teach a workshop on how to use your portfolio to control the conversation where you want it to go. Again, that takes a little self-confidence. And since we're talking about interviewers, I'll just briefly explain how I do that. And then I'm going to go back to the prep question. Is in my portfolio, I have a documentation plan or a project plan that I did for a TechCom project where I did. It includes things like what's the title of the manual? Who's the audience? Are there multiple audiences, entry and advanced? So we have to have summary steps and substeps. Who's my subject matter experts? Right. Is there a style guide? Or do you want me to write the style guide? Is this part of a series of manuals or a standalone? And I walk the in it the person interviewing me through my doc plan and why everything is there. By the time they get to the end of the doc plan, they know I know what I'm talking about. So then I show some samples, but instead of like the documentation from say a Canon printer, I put the an advertisement for that Canon printer. Instead of I documented a L C D projector once and the review in PC magazine said the concise manual made setup easy. So I put a copy of the PC magazine review in my portfolio. Oh, wow. And then I did a project for JCPenney. So I put an ad for JCPenney and had nothing to do with what I wrote. Nothing to do. But by the end of this section, they see that I've written for FedEx and JCPenney and Canon and Epson. So again, I'm positioning myself. Remember, we talked in the last podcast about positioning ourselves as an expert on that panel discussion. Well, we did the same thing in the interview. And then I showed a really messy before. I mean, it was like written on a napkin, messy. And then I showed the after section. And oftentimes when I show this really scribbly diagram, blah blah, they laugh and point to their whiteboard and go, that's just how our stuff looks. And then I showed how I translated that into beautiful tech writing. And then I shut up. And then I let them look through my portfolio. I don't just give it to them, go, here's my samples. It's a tool that I use to lead our interview down a path at one. I'm an expert in my field to the level to which I've been trained, like we talked about last time. I really have done what I said I have done, and I can do the same thing for you, and I can help you solve your business problems. See the difference between that and go, Will you hire me?

Zohra 5:53

Wow, wow, wow. Because I have never been in that seat and I've never given it that sort of a thought. And that is brilliant, brilliant, brilliant advice where you can control. Because generally, when you're being interviewed, you really, at least in my experience, I don't think I've ever been in control. I'm always leaning on my interviewer to guide that discussion. But here you're giving us some great strategies on how you can steer that conversation. And you're in the driver's seat to some extent.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

To some extent. I wouldn't forcibly do this. I'll give you two more examples: honest to God war stories, where the first thing I always have you ever been on an interview when they go, Tell me about you.

Zohra 6:34

Of course, all the time.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

So I would always say, and your audience should write this down tell me a little bit about what you're looking for. So I'll have a context in which to answer your questions. Because I guarantee you, the head of HR is looking for something different than the head of QA, quality assurance, or the head of documentation. And unless you ask what they are looking for, you can't show that you have that, right? It's I define a resume as just a vehicle that shows you match what the reader's looking for, or for what the reader's looking. Same thing with an interview. An interview is just a vehicle that shows that you match what they're looking for. Now, here's a little secret. Nobody hired someone because they had all this money laying around. They didn't know what to do with it. Oh, let's we have all this money, which you let's give it to Joe. No, they're they have a business problem they're trying to solve. Either the item doesn't have a manual or they need a tech support page, or they're trying to divert tech support calls to a knowledge base. So, unless you know what problem they're trying to solve, why should they hire you? Why should they give you, why should they pay you handsomely to the level you want to be paid? Because I am not the cheapest person on the block by far, right? But another real world example. I had a uh I was working as a contract tech writer. At the end of the six months, they wanted to convert me to perm. So this company had published metrics on how long it should take to do a project. And I added up my productivity. I was twice as productive as their metric. So when they offered me a job, I go, Great, pay me twice as much as you're paying your other writers. They went, oh no, line and spreadsheet, this is how much writers make here, no more, no less. And in that moment, I knew I was never going to be an employee again because I was going to be paid based on my production. Now, again, that's adventurous Jack going out on his own, Rod. That's not the right career path for everybody. But unless you keep documentation on the amount of money you've saved your company, right? Here's another thing. I talked about putting things in your portfolio projects you've worked on. A lot of companies look at tech writers as a commodity to be acquired for the lowest possible price. Oh, by the way, we should probably have a manual, as opposed to considering you as a valuable part of the product development team. So when you're interviewing and showing your portfolio, you go, oh yeah, I was part of the product development team that sold $1.2 million with worth of accounting software. Oh, yeah, I helped my company generate $3.2 million in widget sales, but you have to position yourself as a part of a team that generated that revenue, right? Right. Heck, I could double my bill rate and still make you lots of money. See the difference? Yeah. Again, it's not begging you to please hire me because I need a job. It's like, what business problems can I help you solve?

Zohra 9:11

Jack, this is an interesting, I think, not a segue really. It sort of lends to how you're going to position yourself in the interview. And I'm applying this to myself. These this sort of tells me that you sort of have to track your metrics. And when I'm in my job, I need to start thinking about my next position. What am I getting out of this job? How have I contributed in terms of that business sense? And to start putting some numbers to it. And I feel I haven't done that. Would you think that that is something that we should be thinking while we are in our current position and working towards our next whatever that job is going to be?

SPEAKER_00 9:48

The short answer is yes. Not only for your next job, but for your next raise. Ah. If you're not documenting all the things you fixed, if you're not documenting all the number of calls you diverted from tech support, here's an example. When I was on that contract, I was talking, it was an object database. And there were two ways of finding information out of that database. You could look at one person at a time, or you could say, find me everybody in California that makes over $40,000 a year. There were two different teams that were developing those interfaces. And I was the only person working with both teams. And when I was writing the documentation, I noticed that one team assumed X and the other one assumed Y. And if they had waited until they got to integration testing, the software would have failed. So I got the lead developers together in one room. I bribed them with brownies and said, listen, I can document this either way, but you guys need to decide which way you're going to go on this. Do you have any idea how many hundreds of thousands of dollars in development costs I saved that company? Because I was the only person looking at all the different screens, right? How often have you used software that says click on one screen and click on another, or the go buttons up here on one screen and the go buttons down here and somewhere else, but you're the only person looking at the whole software system.

Zohra 11:07

Very true.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

So you you're not a tech writer, you're a user advocate. Right? You're a user experience designer. You are a valuable part of that product development team. And don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

Zohra 11:19

This is very important, what you just said. And I think we sort of undersell ourselves. And this is a conversation that we need to be having as writers as well, that you're an a user advocate. And that is what is going to change that dialogue and that perspective about us. So I'm glad that you brought this up, Jack. This is a very important part of this whole employability. That we also have to become our own advocates of our profession. And how do you go about it, right? You you got to find value in yourself first before you can elevate the profession itself.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Correct. And I probably should have warned you at the top of the conversation I'm a man of few opinions and I rarely state them, but I will try my best.

Zohra 11:58

This is an open conversation. So we need to bring these to the surface. So please, this is your platform for it. And opinions are welcome.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

So getting so getting back to the interview question, there's a tech writer in the STC, Andrea Ames, who, when she worked at IBM, when asked what does she do for a living, she says, I solve business problems. Not I'm a tech writer, not I'm a usability advocate, not I'm an information architect, all of which she is, but that's not how she approaches her job. And that's certainly not how she approaches senior management. Management doesn't care about one space or two after a period. They really don't, right? They care about profits, you know, saving money, generating revenue. And so when I asked her, well, how do you find problems to solve? She goes, I ask for them. Once a quarter, I get on my director's calendar and said, okay, what is keeping you up at night that my team can help you solve? And then documents what they did. So again, no one's going to give you money because they have all this money laying around. They don't know what to do with it. No, they have business problems. And it's your job to say, hey, I'm either a valuable part of the product development team that generates you revenue, or I'm part of the team that interviews tech support and says, okay, what product gets the most calls? Maybe it's not documented well enough, and we can either divert that to a knowledge base or fix the UI user interface or some other solution that you could be part of. So yeah, that's all I'm gonna say on that. If you look at our core competencies, I don't care if you're a tech writer, user interface designer, UX writer, user experience writer, our core competencies include critical thinking skills, interviewing skills, conflict resolution skills, project management skills. Oh, yeah, we write too, but you don't write till you interview. You don't write until you document what you're going to be writing about. You don't start writing until you've got a project plan in place or your manager gave you a project plan. You don't start writing until you ask the subject matter expert, what does this thing do? Now, these core competencies can be applied to training materials, software analyst, trainer, but don't go, what do you do? I'm a writer. Writer's on my fifth finger, not my first one. So you use all these core competencies. I'm a solver of business problems, which segues us into branding and positioning. If you are an entry-level writer and you want to write nursery school policies and procedures, then be a specialist in early education policies and procedures. If you have a degree in computer science and really dig writing computer code, documented computer code, then position yourself or brand yourself as the leading expert in Texas in code documentation. So now we're getting into branding. Sharon Burton in Riverside used to call herself the RoboHub queen back in the day. So that's another whole class and podcast and personal branding.

Zohra 14:55

Personal branding, but I think it is relevant to the job application. Since that is my theme, it is very relevant. And like you said, this could be a whole separate conversation. And hopefully we may come back to that. Who knows? You're giving me ideas here, Jack. And I and I'll take you up on it.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Which is funny because if you're someone will pay a specialist more than they'll pay something that's a commodity. If all you can do is type enter your name in the name field, that job can be offshore and probably already has. But they can't offshore curating user-generated content on a wiki. They can't offshore sitting down with the project managers over Brownies and saying I can document this either way, you just decide which way you want to go. That wasn't my writing skills. Can I write a bulleted list? You betcha. Is that what they pay me for? No.

Zohra 15:43

And you actually bring something in my episode in the last season with Altaf Tyrwala, he talks about curating content. And that is where it is trending. Content development is trending in that direction where there is more of content curation happening. And to curate content, you got to be smart. You're not just writing enter the name or enter the description. What is description? The description. No, you got to be smart about this. So curating content is a skill. And like you said, for that you need that critical thinking and all the other skills. The fifth finger, the little finger, is your writer, but you need all these other skills that go before it before you can even curate content. So correct. It sort of ties back into this branding and positioning yourself and of sort of showing yourself as why, why you should be hired. And you need to start thinking about these. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

So now another thing to consider in your job branding and positioning is if I have a question on how to generate a report in QuickBooks, where do you think I look for that answer?

Zohra 16:47

The Google.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

You could have the best user manual in the world, but people are going to look on Google. So now you have to make sure your documentation is public-facing and in small enough chunks that I don't want to get a 200-page PDF. So now you're writing for multi-channel publishing and both web and PDF and a printed manual. And now this is not enough anymore just to be able to say, I wrote this manual. You have to understand microcontent for the web and translation and content management systems and other big words that I'm not going to mention to confuse entry-level people. So you have people ask me, what should I specialize in? And the first thing I say is, well, search for the job databases for jobs in your area and what tools those companies are using. San Diego has a ton of biotech. Austin has a ton of software companies. Silicon Valley has a ton of startups. And Charlotte and Denver are banking centers. Now keep in mind banks are very conservative. If you're very conservative, you might be very happy at a bank. I, however, would not be happy at a bank. I am not exactly conservative. Right. So again, part of this is finding something that's a good fit for you in the area where you want to live for decent pay or other benefits.

Zohra 18:21

This actually ties back to me. The way I'm looking at it is to the domain expertise that you were talking about. So you study your local market and then there is, and you start seeing these domains emerge. And then you you sort of, if like, for example, banking is something that resonates with you, in the Dallas area, I do see a lot of need for financial writers, especially banks. And I know that that's not going to be a fit for me. I'm looking for tech companies. So now with the remote opportunities that are happening, especially post-pandemic, that sort of brings you more opportunities to explore and to expand your skills. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 19:00

I am happy, happy, happy. The one thing that came out of the pandemic is the proof that we can really work from home.

Zohra 19:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

And be more productive without someone knocking on my cube every minute to tell me what movie they're going to this weekend. I know for my employees, I manage by statistic. You had an objective. Did it get done? Good. Were you working in your pajamas? I don't care. Right? Right. I don't care when you do it, how you do it, just make sure it's done. And working room only has proved that. And as a recruiter, I have five. In the past week, I've gotten five jobs in, all remote. But they also all require these content management system or writing for structured authoring, which is a very specific skill set for which we pay very well because there's not a lot of people out there doing that. So, a word of advice to your listeners: learningditta.com is a free course offered by Scriptorium Publishing on how to learn DITA, which is a standard for doing this database publishing kind of stuff. So if you want to increase your marketability, learn some additional skills that are in demand.

Zohra 20:09

Very true. Talking about interviewing strategies, uh I do want to yes, let's go back to that. And though, when I applied, I recently applied for a job and I did not know anybody at the company. The recruiter got in touch with me after I had applied. So I probably got lucky. Probably my objective had something that mapped to what the skills were in the job description. But not going into too many details there, you know, when you end up talking to a recruiter, they're they're sort of filtering you before your resume is forwarded to the hiring manager. That interview looks very different from what it would be with a hiring manager. What would you say to that? How do I approach something like that?

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Keep in mind you're asking a recruiter that question. Okay. So that's got some context here. So because I'm a technical writer that's special, I mean, I'm a recruiter that specializes in content professionals. And I teach, I produce a whole conference on this technology. I know this field up and down. And it's funny when recruiters come to me looking for somebody. Yeah, we're doing this database publishing thing. And I think they use a CMS. I go, Would you like me to explain what that is? She goes, Yes, please. Then I explain what a content management system is. And I bet you they're probably using DITA as a tennis, oh yeah, DIDA isn't is in the Job Rec2. And they were so happy because these were just buzzwords to them, and no one took the time to explain what these words meant to them. So if you're interviewing with a recruiter and you know, you get to one of these things and said, okay, I am a firm believer that you can tell more about a candidate by the questions they ask, not the answers they give. Right. Do you have an existing style guide or do you want me to write it for you? You. You have a style. Okay, good. Is there a project plan in this place, or would you like me to create a project plan as the first deliverable? Oh, yes, please. They never got around to asking you about you because you're asking all the questions. And people love to talk about themselves. So tell me about your how long have you been at this company and what are the challenges that you face as a recruiter in trying to fill this position? What are you not finding that you really need this person to have? Write that question down, everybody. Because if they had found what they were looking for, they wouldn't be hiring you, right? So clearly there's something they haven't found yet. And unless you ask them what it is they haven't found yet, you can't say you have that or can help them with that problem. And I want to um dive just a tad farther into the what we were just talking about. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you coming into an interview and saying, in preparation for this interview, I I wrote down some questions. Is it okay if I asked them of you? And they'll go, sure. And you're off and running, but you asked permission. You just didn't start grilling the person, right? And I said, Well, I've got some questions about the corporate company as a whole, and I've got some questions about the job in particular. The recruiter might say, Well, ask me the questions about the company, and I have the hiring manager. You can ask the hiring manager the specifics about the technology. But look at they're already planning the second interview, right?

Zohra 23:20

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

So again, I'm not wrestling control, like mine and mouse, I'm in control or Wonder Woman, pick your action figure. Well, okay, I have to show you this. So we did a thing at with Alan Hauser, who she know, and we he started out doing a thing about the heroes and villains of content strategy. So we did a character. So I said, wait a minute, saying captain content is male is sexist. So we created a captain content and a captain content for both genders. And I don't to make sure here's a little tip when you're interviewing, if you type uh tape a photograph right behind your camera and talk to that person, my friend uh Felice Banner uses a photo of the Queen of England. You're looking, it reminds you to look at the camera and not down at the person, so you're making eye contact. Yeah, that's annoying. The thing is, I can look at your photo because I'm talking to you, but no, I really need to look at the camera, so you have to balance those two things. Any of you intent. So getting back to the questions, be prepared because it shows you're interested. Look up what their their mission statement is. Hi, I see your mission is to bring affordable health care to the masses. How would my working in your department, how can I help you do that? Dude, I would hire that person on the spot.

Zohra 24:40

And moving on, that has been some some some some great tips in there. We talked about domain expertise, we talked about when you're talking to a recruiter and the whole interviews itself, how many, how you know you're you're being interviewed or you're interviewing somebody, and you've got to sort of be on the lookout on how you can bring value to that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Correct. Awesome, awesome, awesome. We haven't talked about practicing.

Zohra 25:05

You read my mind. I won't go there. Sorry. You read my mind because I'm like, I was just sort of doing this wrap so that I can get to that, because that's like the stage where you really aren't going to sell it. So please take it away.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

All right. So in an ideal world, you shouldn't have to interview for jobs often. That means you kept losing your job. So I know people who haven't interviewed in 20 years, and there's nothing worse than going on an interview and going, um, um, I, you know, I'm so out of practice. Oh, I don't know if I'm good enough. So pract anything that's better with practice. Nobody goes to Carnegie Hall without years of practice playing the piano. So don't expect to ace your first interview if you haven't interviewed in 20 years. Right. So go on mock interviews, you know, have your, you know, your next neighbor interview you. Ask somebody in the STC to interview you. There, anybody who spoke at this year's summit would be more than happy to do a mock interview with you because we all like to give back. There may be some people that, you know, I'd love to, but I'm just swamped on a deadline. Maybe after January 31st, circle back to me again if you're still unemployed, and we'll do it then. But don't be afraid to reach out to your network and ask them, would you look at my resume? Would you what questions should I ask? I know a lot of companies who do like companies in France do handwriting analysis.

Zohra 26:28

I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

Yeah. And we had a handwriting analyst at um a conference last year that I went to, and she did my handwriting analysis. And boy, she was spot on. She says, I can tell by your fluidity that you like to take control and you don't suffer fools. And I'm got my you just nailed it. So again, banks want somebody conservative. You know, advertising companies want people who are creative, and you can't see me wildly gesticulating with my hands at the moment. I have to remember we're on a podcast, not a video interview. But the point I'm trying to make, and I forget where I was going with this, but you're asking about interviewing.

Zohra 27:03

How do you practice?

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Practicing, practicing. So practice interviewing with somebody who's conservative because you might need to get past that HR person who might be very conservative because that's what HR people do, before you get the director of advertising who's just a ball of energy and wants something similar in a marketing writer. My favorite story about this is a friend of mine was a creative director in New Orleans. There was a job for the creative director at the New Orleans Opera.

Zohra 27:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

So, you know what Helga horns are? It's like a helmet with braids that opera singers sometimes wear. He found a plastic set of Helga horns, wrote his resume on the helmet, and sent it to HR and got the job. They were looking for a creative director. How much more creative can you get for an opera? Again, know thy audience.

Zohra 27:52

Know thy audience.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Yeah, it wouldn't work at a bank, but it definitely worked as a creative director at the opera. See again, know thy audience, practice audience.

Zohra 28:00

Yes, that is truly creative. Now I think from my perspective, I believe I've sort of covered the broad questions in terms of uh, you know, how would you prep for an interview and how would you finally appear for an interview and the sort of the steps that you would go through to get to it? Is there anything that I'm missing that you would like to add to it, Jack?

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Be careful. There are companies who do these psychology-based interviews, and they'll ask you, would you rather eat peanut butter or a slice of pizza? And supposedly that's supposed to say something about you, and I think it's utter rubbish. But I would find out if the company does that kind of thing and how to prepare for that. I am not an expert in that. I'm not the person to ask about that, but I do know it exists. I also know, and I was just horrified to learn this, that companies are using AIs during video interviews to rank people. And I just found an article on LinkedIn. You'll search for it, you'll you can find it. That if you video interview with a bookshelf behind you full of books, you score higher in the AI and intelligence than if you didn't.

Zohra 29:12

I don't know what to think about it.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

I hate it. I absolutely hate it, and that's why I don't like doing those automated surveys. I don't like applying for jobs through websites. I don't want to do an AI automated interview, but yeah, just search for that. It exists, avoid it when you can.

Zohra 29:30

Oh, those are, I mean, uh yeah, especially as we move more to uh video interviews and remote interviews. I had never thought about it. I didn't even know something like this existed.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

I didn't either.

Zohra 29:40

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. We've covered a whole ton, and we could pick each of these topics apart and have more detailed conversations, Jack. But this has been such a fantastic conversation with you. I really appreciate your time and for sharing your insight and your years of experience with us.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

I always end these conversations with my position allows me to give back to the community. So connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm the only Jack Molassani on LinkedIn. Send me your resume. I'll review it for free. I won't spend five hours on it. That's more like career coaching. But I guarantee you, one, I'll keep it on file. So when I do get a job, that's where I look first, is my folder of resumes. And three, if you want to come to my conference, we have a discount code for your followers. Lavacon.org is the conference on content strategy and techcom management that I produce. And we decided hashtag inside techcom with two M's will get you $200 off conference tuition. It's a virtual conference taking place in October. We've got speakers from Microsoft and Amazon and Intel and eBay and pretty much a who's who of TechCom. So join us.

Zohra 30:52

That sounds like an awesome, awesome, awesome opportunity to learn for us. And thanks for sharing that. And I will definitely include that in my show notes. So thanks again, Jack. This has been such a fantastic conversation.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Thank you for inviting me ahead of all.

Zohra 31:06

Me too. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Subscribe to the podcast on your favorite app, including Apple, Google, or Spotify. Follow me on LinkedIn or visit us at www.inside techcom.show for the latest updates. Catch you on another episode.