Zohra: 0:01

Hello listeners. Welcome to season 7 of Insight TechCom with Zara Mutabana. In this season, we have a series of standalone episodes, each tackling a critical issue shaping tech and content today. From hallucination-resistant content and AI adoption to ethics and equity in tech. This season is about navigating change with clarity, integrity, and impact. Let's get started. Hello, listeners. Welcome to another episode of Insight TechCom. Today I have Kay Cronthaler Williams. We've been going back and forth, and I was very intrigued with what she has to offer. And I think it's an important topic that we should be thinking about. We've probably encountered it. But what are we talking about? Kay is the author of the book Not Made for You. It's a book that challenges the notion that women and minorities must fit into systems that weren't built with them in mind. And it offers actionable guidance on how do we navigate bias, claim space, and thrive in environments that often resist change. With that, Kay, welcome to my show. I'm really excited and looking forward to talking to you about this because this is something that I thought about but not discussed or tackled on my podcast. So please introduce yourself.

Kae: 1:23

Thank you so much. First of all, thank you for having me, Zora. I really appreciate it. I've been looking forward to this conversation. Yes, I'm Kay Chrome-Taller Williams. I'm a software marketing executive. I've been in the B2B tech space for over 30 years. And I am now an author of the book Not Made for You, in which we're, you know, we'll talk about some of those topics. But yes, there's been, I've had a lot of experience in these systems that are really built for men by men. And there were barriers that I faced throughout my career. And I wanted to make sure that I help others coming up to maneuver around those barriers.

Zohra: 2:02

That's awesome. I have been in similar positions, and I would love to dig in and see what some of the barriers that you may have run into. How did you overcome them? And a little insight into the book. But you mentioned that you were a telemarketer and then you've become a tech executive. I'm kind of curious about that journey. What was that journey like?

Kae: 2:22

In some respects, it was exciting and fantastic. I did well in my career. I was able to work in global companies. So I worked with a lot of different cultures, which is something I really enjoyed. Eventually I moved up into uh an executive at a young age, but it didn't come without difficult times. And just a lot of it was noticing patterns that there were people that were getting promoted who didn't have as much experience or talent from me and other people, right? And so I there were many times where I didn't get promoted when somebody else got promoted, and I knew that I had more experience or the results in my part of the organization were really good. And I was struggling with why am I not getting promoted? Why am I not moving forward? And you start to recognize that it isn't just about the work that you do. And so it took me a while to understand those things. And I think each time I went into a new role or a new company, I started to recognize the pattern that was happening. And it was more about influence and visibility, not necessarily what I my expertise was. And then I started to think about how do I get influence and visibility? What are the things I need to do? And how do I advocate for myself? And I started trying different strategies because I wanted, I was ambitious, you know, I am still ambitious, and I wanted to hit a certain level in my profession, and I knew that at a young age. So I wasn't giving up. I was trying to figure out how do I do this? And sometimes I tried to fit in and recognize that that didn't work either. It just sometimes it just didn't matter what I did. And so again, I just tried different tactics and eventually I learned how to work within these environments and work around the bias that really is very instilled in these systems.

Zohra: 4:35

That is such a great, I would say, a snapshot or an overview of what you've encountered in your career. I'm curious if you would like if you'd be okay sharing with us what patterns did you see? One, congratulations on making it in tech as a tech executive. Uh that speaks to what you've identified and overcome. That it tells me about the growth mindset. And I am an advocate of growth mindset. So I'm approaching this with that mindset as well. But you mentioned the patterns, and I'm curious if you can share just some of the patterns that you run into or observed.

Kae: 5:15

Sure. So a couple of things that before in my book, there's chapters on things that I experienced. And as I was writing the book, I realized that every chapter that I wrote about, I had experienced several times in my, and that was sexism, sexual harassment, microaggressions, ageism, racism. Like I experienced all of those things dealing with ego first leaders, and there's many women who experienced some of those things, but I was shocked when I looked back at my profession and realized I experienced all of them, and sometimes more than more than once. So the patterns that I noticed, firstly, I recognized that it wasn't just that manager or that department or even that organization, because as I moved from organization to organization, I was seeing the same patterns. And the patterns were around who has influence, who are people paying attention to, who gets the stretch assignments, who gets promoted, what do they consider leadership to look like? And it just became obvious that for me, when I saw someone getting promoted, it didn't equate to the true evidence, right? So somebody was getting promoted who just happened to know the right people, not because they were competent in their area. And I saw that that's an example that I saw several times. So you start to realize that their depth, the definition of leadership isn't what we typically think. It's going in and working hard, and we're going to get promoted. That is not the case, right? Just because you work hard, and even if you're good at what you do, that doesn't guarantee that you're getting promoted. So those were the patterns that I started to see in each of the organizations that I worked in. And then I recognized that it was this system, again, that was built, and also who gets supported or who get supported, who has advocacy from somebody else. And they weren't typically women or minorities that were getting the support, right? We have very different experiences in business, women and you know, minorities or marginalized groups. Our experience at work is very different than others, and we don't get the full support or the access. Our networks, the way we network is very different, or it has to be different because we're not always included in these networking opportunities or side conversations. And a lot of business happens within those times. And if we're not invited to those conversations or those networking, you know, after network, you know, after work events, if we're not invited, we're not getting those stretch assignments or special projects or that tidbit of information that may help you do your job better, or you're not getting access to the people who do have influence or around promotions. You're not able to build the rapport with them because you're not in those situations.

Zohra: 8:26

Yeah. One thing that you mentioned, the after-work conversations that happen or events that happen around networking, that's been one of my very big pet peeves, especially when my kids were younger. I wanted to get home. They were my priority. And also the other thing that I probably have run into on personally is the imposter syndrome, that I'm not good enough. So that also holds me back. So in with all the other patterns that you've observed, there are some inhibitions that also may hold one back. In your opinion, or rather, not opinion, but with how you approached it and how you sort of overcame these situations. Can you share some insights on what those were?

Kae: 9:14

Sure. I agree with the imposter syndrome, right? I had that. We all have it, and we we still have it, I have it at times, right? We have to just not listen to it. When it comes to imposter syndrome, what I would say is that we have to remember that everybody in that room is just figuring things out. And once that clicked for me, that the CEO, the head of finance, or whoever it is in your department or whatever that you think knows more than you do, we don't know everything. We're that's why we're here. We're problem solvers. We're here to solve problems, including the CEO. We don't have it all figured out. So we you have to tell yourself that when you're starting to feel that imposter syndrome, right? Because we all feel it, but recognize that not everybody has the answer. And as far as the things that I did to overcome some of these obstacles, I recognize that I had to build relationships very differently than men. And so I wasn't always in these situations. I didn't have children, but I still wasn't always invited to these after work events, or I didn't feel comfortable because I typically I was the only female executive. So those were situations. But what I realized was that I needed to network differently. So I network one-on-one. I had to build my networks individually within the organization. And I did that through meeting with people, my peers, those higher, lower, I really network throughout the organization. And some of that is around collaborating with them on particular projects, which is something sometimes we don't, we try and do everything ourselves because we feel like if we ask for help or that looks like we don't know what we're doing, that we're incompetent. When reality is when you go out and you ask people to help you or have them get involved in your project, you're building a rapport with them. And what I found is that when people started to work with me individually and get to know me, it broke down the bias that people tend to have around women, or, you know, for me, women and women of color. And so it made it easier when I was in a room with them. Now they've seen my work, they know I'm competent, and then they advocate for you in that room, whether you're in the room or not. And so I found that that was much more valuable than going out and having drinks with a bunch of people.

Zohra: 11:48

Absolutely. I am in 100% agreement with that. One thing that you brought up, as a woman, you may be the only one and you may not be comfortable. Yes. There are so many reasons. I read this uh book called The Five Types of Wealth. I think it's by Sahil Bloom, and I follow him on LinkedIn. And he talks about expanding your surface area with how you network. And I really love that analogy. And I'm thinking of many of the things that you talk about sort of in some way relate to what he had to say. Collaborating on projects, asking for help, networking individually, and showing what value you can bring to the table.

Kae: 12:27

Yes.

Zohra: 12:28

Taking that problem-solving approach. So it's really interesting to me to see that when we talk about networking, it can be intimidating. And when we think about networking, you go to these networking events, talk to a zillion people, walk away with no valuable, meaningful relationship at the end of the day. So, how do you nurture those relationships? And I think that's you've given us some great examples on how to develop that skill to grow that muscle.

Kae: 12:57

Networking, if we look at it as networking, is very intimidating. And I going into now, you know, with age, you become more confident going into a room and having a conversation. Right. When you're younger or early experience in your career, that's can be quite intimidating. And even for people who've been around for a long time, depending on your personality, that can be intimidating. But if you look at it from a networking perspective, I started to change that. I go to networking events and I will talk to somebody, but after I will follow up. Like I ought because you want outside support as well, not just an internal network. You want outside networks. It's really important to have that. And so I would call and say, Hey, it was great chatting with you. I enjoyed the conversation. Can we grab a cup of coffee? And now, you know, maybe it's a virtual cup of coffee now, but grab a cup of coffee and and just try and stay in touch and add value to the conversation. And I look at it as I just enjoy people, I enjoy talking to people, and that's what it is. And I enjoy working with other people. And if I approach it that way, it's less intimidating than looking at it from a networking perspective. And and again, it's all levels. There's people in when I go into organizations, if I see somebody on a call and they're not happy with what the news was from the company meeting or something's happening, I will call and say, Hey, are you okay? That person doesn't have to be my department. I'm just checking in. Like, are you okay? I'm here if you want to chat, just let me know. That's building rapport and relationships with people.

Zohra: 14:32

Absolutely. I love how you talk about reaching across teams to build those relationships. One thing that I have struggled with is how do I upsell myself to the C level executives? That's one area where I struggle with. What I have done over the years is the people that I have worked with or gotten to know from other departments, every holiday season, I try and meet one of them as much as I can in person, if I can. We go out for lunch, we spend an hour together. You start some sort of a tradition, right? And you become friends. And then you be, and their friends have become my friends as well. So they've introduced me, and that's how my community of support has grown. But I have not been able to break into those higher-ups, the sea levels. Do you have any recommendations for somebody like me?

Kae: 15:23

Sure. And that again, I get that it can be intimidating, but it's it's that collaboration going to somebody and saying, I would go to the CFO and say, Hey, I just want your take on this. This is something I'm working on. Here's my thoughts. You see any holes in this strategy? Can we talk about this? That's how you do that, right? And so, first of all, we have to not equate visibility with ego. It's not being arrogant and having an ego that you want to show off your work. That is not having influence requires visibility of what you're doing. And so the first thing is to make sure the work that you're doing has a true impact and tying that work to what the goals of the company are or the goals of your department are. That's the first thing, right? And if you tie that, now you can go have these conversations. Say, I'm working on this project. And every project that you work on, it affects other departments. It's not just your department. So you can go to other people and say, I just want you to, can I have this conversation with you? Here's what I'm thinking. I'd love to get your perspective as the head of customer success or you in finance, and going to them and showing them. So now a couple of things happen. You're building rapport, they're starting to get to know you. They're also starting to see the project that you're working on. And if you bring that project with the impact that it's going to have on the business from the business goals, they're going to remember that. So now when they're in another meeting, and it may not be your leader, because some people they don't feel they get that visibility through their leader. So you may have to not go around them, but you have to just go and get your visibility yourself, right? You're the CEO of your career, as I say.

Zohra: 17:09

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

Kae: 17:11

So now they understand what you're working on and they may bring that up and say, hey, you know, Zora, she came to me with this project. I really think we should talk about this more. And then maybe Zora gets invited into this meeting and shares her project.

Zohra: 17:25

Absolutely. I I love that. And now that I think about it, there have been such situations in my career, especially now that I am remote. I plug in into all the AI championship projects that are happening across the company. And that has one helped me professionally develop, stay current with the technology, learn and like stay ahead of the curve. And then definitely introducing me to people that I wouldn't have known otherwise. And uh just learning. And we I realize at the end of the day that there is so much of that overlap, not only in skills, but even the business outcomes that we have in terms of as content creators, especially in my role. So there has been some great insights that I have in the last couple of years since AI has become a big thing. I've tried to plug in. So I think there is definitely that weight to your advice, plug in so that other leaders can speak for you in a room.

Kae: 18:23

So in your example, that you're in these things and you're learning more about AI, and there may be somebody that's presenting, I'm not sure what the format is, but somebody may be presenting something to them. And if that's of interest to you, you can go out to them after and say, you know, that was really interesting. I have some questions, or I'd love to learn more, or I have some thoughts that and how we could use this. That you now you're building that relationship and they're starting to understand how you think.

Zohra: 18:49

Exactly. Absolutely. And then one approaching it with humility and with that open-mindedness. Yes. And no egos. Absolutely no egos. You have to put your ego aside when you're networking. Exactly.

Kae: 19:00

Yes, yes, you have to be willing to ask for feedback that can feel uncomfortable, right? To say, oh, I don't know everything. But I always tell my teams, I want to be clear, I don't know everything, and I never will. And I am going to get, I am going to solicit your feedback and we are going to make some decisions together because you're here because of your particular expertise. But I think those are the ways you go about getting visibility. And there's nothing wrong with doing a status update to the right people. But again, it's not, you have to be very careful when you're doing that. If you're doing a written update that you want to get visibility, it has to show the impact. They have to be projects that matter to the people that you're sending them to, right? It can't just be a to-do list that can go to your manager, but that's, and even your manager, you want to tie what you're doing to the goals of the department.

Zohra: 19:55

Absolutely. Very critical. And that's something I have started paying more attention to. What is the business outcome and what impact does it have? Yes. Not just a to-do list, especially when I'm doing my reviews, right? My quarterly reviews, my quarterly check-ins. I want to go back to what you just shared, being vulnerable to your team, being open, being honest, being transparent about the fact that you don't know everything. As a leader, when you say that, you open up you're opening the door to the team to also be honest and to be vulnerable. I think that's such an important skill in a leader. And then the fact that we'll figure this out together. The question that comes to my mind here, okay, is I have noticed that when I've had women leaders in the past, that these are some of the I would say the temperament that they bring to the table largely allows them to be vulnerable team, being a team support and all of that. But when I've reported to male employees, male managers, and this is not obviously stereotypical. I've had some great male managers, but there have been male managers where that has not been the case. We are driving this, and you're just going to follow the lead. In such situations, when women are reporting, what in your opinion would be a way to sort of face that and overcome that? Maybe they're seeing a bias there in such situations.

Kae: 21:24

So I have a chapter on the ego first leader and how to do it and how to attack that, which I think is important for people to read in the book because you can have some really strong ego-type leaders, and they want you to do what they say to do. And I've worked with some of them and had great rapport. And part of that is to feel you have to feel comfortable. Give offer advice. You have to offer advice and it every now and then. And if it's good advice, they Will eventually, not all of them, will eventually take that advice, and you get to a point where you're comfortable with each other. It's not good to just do what they say. And here's why. I've seen CEOs, for example, that were very dominant. And so it had to be exactly the way they wanted it done. And the problem with that is now everybody's afraid to make decisions. So everything's being delayed and stalled because you're afraid to make a decision. You want that leader to make a decision. If you allow that, eventually that leader is going to say, She's not giving me there's I see no value in what she's doing. Versus the attitude, my attitude when I've had leaders like that is I was hired to do my job. I'm going to do my job. I'm going to tell you why I'm doing it. And if I made a mistake, I'll tell you the mistake and then what my me and my team are doing to fix it. They may, if they don't like that, they may fire me, and that's a risk I have to take. But I know if I don't do things the way that I know it should be done in my department, and I am responsible, I'm fully responsible for the decisions I make. If I don't make decisions, I'm never going to be viewed as valuable and I'm probably going to get fired anyway.

Zohra: 23:15

True. This was actually one of my questions to you. As you provide probably scripts or opportunities on how to advocate for yourself in a high-stake conversation, how would you do it? Would you say that this is where you do your job? Do you also buy in before you go ahead and do something if it is something out of the box with an egocentric dominant leader?

Kae: 23:39

So I would have the conversation with them on here's why I believe we should do it this way. And from my experience, I believe we should do it this way. And this is what I'm going to do. Now, they may say, no, you're going to do it this way. And as a leader, I recognize that there's times where I just have to tell my team, guys, I know you may not agree with this, but we have to do this for the business. So there's times that they a leader has to dictate certain things. And we may not always see why we don't always agree. But if you have a leader that never lets you make any decisions, then you're in the wrong company. What's the point of being there? Right. That's the point. I'm not here just to do what they say. I have expertise and experience that needs to be valued. If it's not valued, then you might be in the wrong organization.

Zohra: 24:28

Absolutely. I think that you have to be discerning enough to know if this is a good fit for you or not. Right. If you have to feed the ego all the time, then you know that this is not the place, unless you're okay with it. That's okay too.

Kae: 24:40

And I've had really strong leaders, highly opinionated, and people were just saying yes to that person all the time. I didn't do that. I was always respectful, and I wouldn't, you have to be careful about disagreeing with them in front of other people sometimes, right? You have to understand what their temperament is for that. But I was always respectful. I was professional, and I had solid reasons for what I wanted to do, logical reasons. And I worked well with a lot of them because of that. I wasn't afraid to speak my mind because ultimately, for the most part, they want somebody else. That's typically why they hired you. They don't always want to make their decisions on their own, for the most part, right? But they fall into this pattern because they may have a very dominant personality and it makes people fearful. So then they they're just yes people. But ultimately, if you handle it correctly, the conversation, they like that. They like that you're bringing a different perspective. That's what I've found.

Zohra: 25:47

Yeah. So what I'm taking away from this is don't be afraid to share whatever your idea is. Try to get the buy-in. And sometimes you don't get the opportunity because, like you said, the leadership may know things that you don't, but having that buy-in and being transparent and open and what business impact it may have can at least open the doors for a conversation. You may not end up doing something exactly the way you planned, but you can walk away with, I guess, more confidence and trust from your leader if you at least approach them. Not challenge them, but be collaborative.

Kae: 26:25

Yes. And it's okay to challenge them. It's okay to challenge them in the right tone, in the right way. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But the first thing is you have to be confident in what you're doing. You have to master your profession, right? I and I've I've and I'm sure you're doing that. I can tell you're continuing to keep up with your profession, just like I've been doing as well. So you have to do that really well. And then it's okay. You start to gain influence when you speak up, when you have an opinion to offer. That is how you gain influence.

Zohra: 27:02

This is extremely important. I think you've really hit the nail on the head for me. You have to speak up respectfully, you have to speak up because that is how you create your own space. Yeah. Respectfully, competently, competently, very important. Competently and respectfully. I think those are the two important things. Yes. And confidently. Yes. Because if you can, if you can muster the these uh skills and present yourself, then there, yes, you may you may not be the chosen one the first time, but showing up constantly is what gets you the visibility that you're looking for.

Kae: 27:39

Yes, and you might not always have the right answer, and they might not agree with you. Exactly. And if they don't agree, and you you have to always think what's the worst thing could that could happen? They could say no or they don't agree with you. If they don't agree with you, you'll hopefully get a good sense of why they don't, and now you've just learned something extra. Yes, right? So it's a it's in a learning experience from you. Now there are other situations where they're just, and I've seen this, where they are, you're doing it my way all the time. And you have to think about is that the right place for me? Because if you're not learning, you're not gaining influence or visibility or credibility, why are you there? I mean, some people may be like, I just need to get a paycheck, and maybe, and if that's the case, that's okay. But if you're trying to grow your career, not the right role or not the right manager.

Zohra: 28:34

Exactly. I want to touch upon the microaggressions that you talk about in tech spaces. When you and I spoke, you talked about the microaggressions. What practical advice do you have for responding to them, especially for somebody who's early in their career?

Kae: 28:51

Microaggressions are probably the most dangerous of all the things that I talk about in the book, all the isms, sexism, sexual, well, sexual harassment aside, uh, the uh, you know, but it's very dangerous because it crosses all of those things. It can be so subtle and small micro that it gets ignored, but it really does damage because microaggressions are a slight. They're a statement, a stereotype, and they're a slight towards other people. And it can be around gender, religion, race, right? There's so many things it can be about. And typically, the person doing it, there's two types of microaggressors. One who knows what they're doing, they're doing it on purpose, and they're trying to make you feel othered and make themselves feel they feel superior towards you because of your religion, your skin color, whatever it is. And they know they can't come out and blatantly say something because that could be an HR issue. If they say something as a bit of a slight or they say it as a joke, they can always, if you address it with them, or if you go to HR or whatever it is, they can say, Oh, I was just joking, you're taking this too seriously. So that's the one that's doing it on purpose. Then the other one is I call them clueless, they don't realize the harm they're causing. That's an ignorance of a stereotype that they they believe to be true, but they're not doing it to be harmful to you necessarily. So the one that's doing it cluelessly, you can address it in a certain way if that relationship matters to you. If it's somebody that you care about, you could say, you know what, you said that, and here's what how that made me feel, or here's how that's damaging. You could just say it nicely. If it's the other one, it is a very head-on interaction that you need to have. For example, I write in the book about a situation where I was in a meeting and there's this guy who was Latino, and the white man was speaking to him, but when he spoke to everybody else, he was speaking to them regular language. When it came to Latino, he was like, Hey brother, hey man, high five, that type of now that automatically makes this person different because you feel like you have to speak to them differently for some reason. I would address that and say, are you intending to speak to me with slang? Are is it intentional that you're speaking to me with the hey man's and the high fives? Are you trying to make me feel separated and different from the rest of the group? Do you realize how damaging that is? I would hit that head on. Or I've gotten the where are you from? Or what are you? It starts with what are you? And then I used to say, Oh, I'm a human being, what are you? And then they'd like, no, like, where are you from? And I'd say, I'm from Massachusetts. And then they like, no, where are you from, really? So I would answer. Then I got to the point where I wouldn't even go that far. If they say, Where are you from? Now, some people maybe you're just getting to know somebody at work and they're like, Hey, where are you from? I'm from Massachusetts. If they say no, where are you really from? My response is doesn't matter. What does that have to do with work? Or if they ask me about my hair, because my I have very naturally curly hair. I used to wear my hair curly, and then there are all these questions about my hair, or how did you do your hair? Or now it's straight today, and yesterday it was curly. And my response would be, what does that have to do with what we're doing here at work? Head on.

Zohra: 32:35

Head on.

Kae: 32:36

Yeah.

Zohra: 32:37

I would like to share a couple of experiences since you we are talking about microaggression. I was at a party. This was a company-organized event after work. And there was there was alcohol, and this one person from HR got drunk, and then they needed to be escorted to their car in the parking lot, and I offered to help them on the way to pick up on my religion and make really snarky remarks. I could not go to HR. I came back home thinking like I was stripped of my humanity. And this was very early on at this company. I had just gotten an offer, I had just started literally the first week. What do you do in such a situation? Because I let it go.

Kae: 33:26

I didn't know what to do. I would now, it's easier now, right? I always have to remember if I were younger, I might have handled it, I might have not have said anything either and just have been angry about it. But my take would be if you feel safe talking to that HR person the next day and saying, This is what you said to me, it was inappropriate. You can say why you think it's inappropriate, or you can just say that was inappropriate, let's make sure that doesn't happen again. Or you can go to your manager and say, This happened, it was inappropriate. If it's really severe, you could say, I want that documented that it was said. But I always give the person who said it, it's always better to go to them first, but then say, if this continues, then we're gonna have to take this elsewhere, depending on how they react. Now they may say, I'm so sorry, I was drunk or whatever. And I would say, okay, being drunk is not an excuse, but let's make sure it doesn't happen again.

Zohra: 34:24

Yeah, I wasn't even that young, honestly.

Kae: 34:27

Yeah. This was it doesn't have to be young. You're right. It doesn't have to be that you're young. It could happen to me tomorrow, and I may not react correctly or the way that I want to in the moment. And I always say that's okay. If you're in a meeting or somebody says something to you and you don't say anything, and then after you know you go, Oh, I should have said this, or oh, I should have said that. What I always say is you still have the opportunity to go back and speak to that person.

Zohra: 34:52

And I think that is so important to go back and to have again a respectful conversation with this person and give them the opportunity. One to let them know that probably what they said they may have been clueless, or they I don't know about this person, whether they were clueless. I think they were very much aware and their whole intention was to go after me. Right. They were very professional on every day after that, and but I did not have the guts to bring that up with them. One, because, like you mentioned earlier, I wanted a paycheck, and two, I felt I didn't know how to face them head on.

Kae: 35:30

But it's not just about giving them the benefit of the doubt. That's fine, that's gracious of you. It's more about letting them know that that is not how you you will not accept that type of behavior coming from them to you. That's setting a boundary, and that's the important part of it. Who cares how they react or whether they like it or not? And I've had these situations where I bring it up and then they start disputing it with me. And my I end the conversation by saying, I just want to be clear of what I said. I know you heard what I said, and now we're ending the conversation. And I walk away. I said what I need to say. And however they react to that, that's on them. If they retaliate, now they've created a bigger problem for themselves because now you have to deal with it with your manager or their manager or whatever, right?

Zohra: 36:23

However, you want to escalate that.

Kae: 36:25

Yeah. But but you go in there without I think being calm, always being calm and professional, and saying, look, you said this, I didn't like what you said. This better not happen again, right? Yeah, however, you want to say it, but it's not going there with a lot of anger, like you said this, and then it's just like this is very calmly, very matter-of-fact. This is what you said. Let's make sure it doesn't happen again. That's it.

Zohra: 36:50

Yes. And I can be quite, I mean, it was hurtful, and I knew that I probably would lose my calm if I had to face them again. And that was one big reason why I just walked away from the whole thing. One, did that person matter to me?

Kae: 37:08

That is a good consideration, yes. Right?

Zohra: 37:10

They didn't. Did I report to them? No, I didn't. Professionally, I would probably run into them once in a blue moon, even though we were in the same on the same floor. So I kind of took all these things into consideration. But I like your suggestion that it's always good to draw your boundaries, especially, especially for women, women of color, for minorities, to draw those boundaries and to speak up. Because if you don't advocate for yourself, nobody is going to advocate, especially in these situations of microaggression.

Kae: 37:40

And in that situation, if you would have said to that person, regardless of, and I think there is a consideration, like does this person matter or not? That's certainly a consideration. But the other thing to think about is if you say that to them, they will be very careful about saying that anything like that again to you or to somebody else. So now you've also helped somebody else to some, you hope. I mean, they may be very blatant and they may continue to do it. That's a whole different situation, right? But you have to consider that you want to let them know that that was inappropriate for work. Yes. Leave your bias, and I've said this to people leave your bias in the parking lot before you get out of the car. I don't have to tolerate this at work.

Zohra: 38:26

And that's fair. And I think these are things that we learn one as we go through life. Yes. Right. And that you earn that confidence. So today, if somebody did that or said that to me, I would definitely be able to stand up to them. Sure. But barely 10 years ago, I didn't have the guts. Same.

Kae: 38:43

Same. I'm sure I handle it differently now than I did in the past. Even when I was writing the book, I always had to think about the advice I was giving, but recognize that some of the people are younger in experience or earlier in their professions. They don't have all that confidence yet. So making sure I recognize that it's not easy to do this, right?

Zohra: 39:09

Right. This has been a good dive into what migration is because I definitely wanted to bring up the scenario and see how one would respond. And you give me some really good ways to think about it.

Kae: 39:20

Yes.

Zohra: 39:20

So thank you for that. Sure. It's almost more like a therapy session.

Kae: 39:25

Yeah. Well, this is. I mean, and this is the part about having support and networks outside because when these things happen, you do want to find somebody you can talk to about it and have the conversation. So you don't just take it and say, was that me? Did I say something wrong? Or oh, I didn't say the right thing. You want that support because you don't want to keep that and internalize it.

Zohra: 39:47

Absolutely. And this actually goes back to the whole point about networking. Networking is not just to climb the professional ladder, but to learn from each other. Yes. And to be each other's backup and support. Yes. You can't you're building your community. So you have to think about networking in so many different ways.

Kae: 40:07

Yes. Networking can be you're building your ecosystem outside of work. If I come into a new job, I have consultants, I have people that I know. If I need advice from a business perspective, I can go ask. But I also have a network of people that if something happens at work and I'm questioning, did it really happen or did I respond well, that I can go to them and say, hey, this happened today. Can we talk about this? Or you know what I mean? It just makes you feel better.

Zohra: 40:33

It does, absolutely. And I've been blessed with those kind of relationships. So I'm I'm very grateful and I completely recognize what you're saying. This is a great segue into mentorship. How would you recommend somebody who is in a position of with experience? How would you advise them to mentor somebody who's coming to you with some such life situation?

Kae: 40:58

If you have any insights on that, I mentor a lot of people. It's something I've been doing for years. I enjoy it. And there's people that the teams that have worked for me, they know if you've ever worked for me, you can come and ask me anything, no matter what company you are and I are working in. We worked together 10 years ago, and I have people like that that still come to me. And it can be business related or it can be these situations. And that was part of writing the book because I recognized when I was mentoring some of these women, they'd come to me with a situation and I would say, Well, here's how I would handle it. This is what I would say. Try this. And they would go, Oh, that's really not that hard. I don't have to leave my job. I can just say this, you know. And so I fully advocate for mentoring others. And I think I just started that by as part of my leadership skills within a team, I mentor people, my teammates. I always offer um my ear or my advice, and then it spills out after if we're not in the same job anymore. It spills out, right? And so that's how I built these people that come to me and I go to them. It's equal. It's equal. And and a lot of these people that I mentor are early in their careers, but I they have great advice for me too, right? I sometimes I go, hey, can I chat with you about this? So I think it's really important for mentorship. And it's really just giving your experience, right? Giving your advice, your take on how to handle it. And I always am careful about here's how I would say it, and I want to make sure they say it calmly and professionally. But I also say, here's how I would say it, but you got to take what I said and make it comfortable for you and your style and how you would say it.

Zohra: 42:50

That's such good advice. But I'm also thinking back on what you said earlier in our conversation. As a leader, when you are open, vulnerable, transparent, yes, you are setting yourself up to be a good mentor, but not saying it.

Kae: 43:05

Yes, you don't have to say it. You just say it.

Zohra: 43:08

That you've already built it that trust.

Kae: 43:10

Right. That's the thing that I realized building teams, because I've had big teams, global teams, and I've had smaller ones. And what I recognize is I have to build these high-performance marketing teams, and I have to build them pretty quickly, just based on what I do, because I come into startups and scale-ups, right? And PE backed or VC backed, and they want that growth fast. So I have to build these teams quickly.

Zohra: 43:34

Right.

Kae: 43:34

And the best way to do that is to get people comfortable with sharing their experience and collaborating. And that is around safety, feeling that they're in a safe environment, right? Because we're going to discuss things. And we, I may say, I don't think that's the right approach, or I don't think that ad's working. And I want people to feel comfortable with that feedback from me or from their peers on the team. And I make sure we build those environments and I talk about that. I talk about the team safety. This is a safe space. If we're looking at some work that you're doing and we provide advice or feedback, it's constructive feedback. It is not personal. And we openly discuss that so that they feel comfortable.

Zohra: 44:21

And I was my follow-up question was going to be about inclusive leadership. And I think you've given a great example already of how you have set up inclusive leadership on your team.

Kae: 44:31

Yeah. So there's inclusivity meaning diversity too, which I'm very I absolutely have very diverse teams, as I think diversity of thought is important. I want people from different backgrounds, different genders, whatever that is. I want people coming at a problem from different angles because then we come up with the best solution. But the other part of inclusivity is I want everyone on the team, and even the shyest person or the youngest person on the team to share their thoughts comfortably. And I sometimes I have to force that, say, Jennifer, what do you think? And get them comfortable with responding. Now I may be coaching them on the side, saying, You got to speak up more in meetings. I want to, you have great ideas. I want you to share this idea. Or next time I want you to present this because I love what you did. I want you to present it to the team. So there's that back end coaching, but I also in meetings, making sure they get comfortable with expressing their thoughts in our meetings so they start to feel comfortable in other meetings speaking up.

Zohra: 45:37

Speaking up. And that leads me to my next question. You have been, like you said, you may be coaching Jennifer, quote unquote, to speak up on the side. But in general, how can women and minorities in tech roles or otherwise assert themselves in environments where they may be underrepresented?

Kae: 45:59

There is an amount of courage. And I've been thinking about this quite a bit because I do get asked this question of what is it like in those rooms? Like, how do you get the courage to speak up? And so I tried to think about how did I get the courage to speak up? And there were two things. One, again, I knew my profession well. I made sure I understood marketing, I understood the latest and greatest, I had all the data and all the results. And I'm always on top of that game. So I feel comfortable in that regard. And then the second piece of that is you just have to do it. You just have to speak up and try it. But I remember the first time I was a VP and I had a CEO who the other V, I was the only female executive, I was the youngest by like 20 years in that room. And I'd have my one-on-ones with the CEO, and he's like, You have great ideas. You need to, I want to hear you in the meetings, sharing your ideas. So he was encouraging me to do it. He gave me that confidence. And so I started to speak up, and it wasn't sometimes they'd go, okay, you know, like almost like patting me on the head. Yeah, that's great. Thank you, Kay. And then they'd go and talk, but I kept doing it, and I'd have the data and I'd it's not just about having confidence because there's a lot of people that have confidence, but they don't have the competency to back it up. Like the competency is important to back it up. That's the longevity of your career, right? Because people who have confidence, they might not get the results, and eventually their career's gonna stall. So you need both of those, and you start to gain the more you speak up, the more influence you start to have, the more people, when you say something, they're looking at you because they're used to you now speaking up and you have something to say. So now again, now you're having more influence, you're starting to show your value, and eventually you start to get that confidence.

Zohra: 47:55

Yeah, I so important. Competence, as you said, is I mean, I think that without that, you really cannot do everything that we've talked about. Right. But backing up whatever you may be talking about, backing that up with any data, if so required, is equally important. So I think I would add that. So competence is one, then backing it up, backing up your subject with data so that you come prepared and then just do it.

Kae: 48:21

Yeah. Data and experience. Data and experience matters too, right? Right, right. And that's some of the confidence. Like I've done this in this room, I'm the only one that understands marketing. So why am I being bashful about offering my opinion when it has something to do with marketing? So you know, experience matters as well.

Zohra: 48:40

Experience matters too. And the more experienced one becomes, you automatically become a thought leader. Yes. I've been doing this podcasting for years now. This is my sixth year. That's amazing.

Kae: 48:52

Congratulations.

Zohra: 48:54

Thank you. But like I said, I do have imposter syndrome. And when I show up in rooms, I am competent, but I'm bashful. And I have the data to back me up, but I think I just have to do it. Sometimes I do it, sometimes I don't, because I may not understand the subject entirely, but I'm trying to trying to process it. And I'm attempting. I've been in this career for a long, long time. So I think what I'm trying to say is even after all these years of experience, and even being having presented at conferences, having a podcast does not mean that I go in with confidence into all spaces.

Kae: 49:33

No, and neither do I, right? I and I've done this for a long time. There's times I'm not as confident, but that's not going to stop me from speaking. Or as you said, you you might not understand a topic fully. Okay, that's all right. To say, look, I may not be getting this clearly, but here's what I feel like I'm getting from you, or this is what I think you're saying, or this is the outcome, or whatever that is that you're talking about. Is that right? Like, am I getting this correctly? Am I getting this thought correctly? That's okay to say that. Like, I'm not embarrassed to say, you know what, I don't really understand that. Can you explain that to me again? I'm I didn't get that part of what you just said. Can you explain that to me? That's totally important. But that's still speaking up. That's showing that you are thinking.

Zohra: 50:23

You're thinking, right. And paraphrasing in your own words so that the person explaining knows where the delta is and where they need to fill in the gaps for you. But you open this opportunity for yourself. If you didn't speak up, you would not even understand. So you're walking away again without any value, right? Without contributing any value. So yeah, speaking up and asking questions is also asserting yourself in a way.

Kae: 50:46

Absolutely. And so maybe that's the first way to do it is to ask questions. Maybe that's what gets you to feel more comfortable in the room asking a question or someone saying something and you saying, I let me just play that back to you to make sure I got that correctly, right? That might be easier than just asserting an idea first, right? It's just getting comfortable having those conversations. I mean, the first time I was in a board meeting with a bunch of other executives, and you know, we have to report out, and and there's the PE firm guys there. That's intimidating. But I also have to remember that I'm the only one in here doing my job. So I understand this part of the job. Now, there may be other people who have expertise in marketing, and which is great, they may not agree with what I'm saying, or they may have a different opinion. I'm okay with that. That doesn't make me look bad, they just have a different opinion. And we have to remember that just because someone offers their opinion about something you said doesn't mean that you're wrong and they're right. Both of those things can be true, or they may say something that you learn from, or you may say something that they learn from.

Zohra: 51:57

Right. And I think that's such an important piece of advice where different opinions does not matter that you're wrong or right. These are just opinions. They're opinions, but you have to speak up. Either ask a follow-up question if their opinion is offering something better than your opinion, and if not, counter it with data and competence. We are on top of the hour here, Kay, and we've had such an amazing deep dive into what it means building your own systems and thriving in those. Where can people find your book and how can they connect with your ongoing work?

Kae: 52:33

Yeah, thank you. This has been a fantastic conversation. I we I could talk to you for hours, actually. We have so much in common that we like. Likewise, likewise great experience. So people can get my book. It's on Amazon. The book is called Not Made for You. But if you go to my website at kwilliams.com, and that's K-A-E Williams.com, there's links to where you can buy the book on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, et cetera. And there's also links to my social media, and I I give a lot of advice and my thoughts on LinkedIn, Substack, and Instagram. So my links are there. So please follow me and then happily, happy for you to send me an email, etc., and and to chat with anybody. I I enjoy having these conversations.

Zohra: 53:21

That's fantastic. Kay, I will remember to add these details in the show notes as well. Okay. I want to end on a great positive note, if possible. Do you have a mantra or message you turn to when things get tough? Something you'd like to share with our audience.

Kae: 53:36

My mantra is keep thriving. I just tell myself to keep thriving. That word brings me joy. There's so much meaning in that word of thriving. It's taking away the negative and really looking at the positive. So that's what I say to myself is keep thriving.

Zohra: 53:53

And on that note, Kay, keep thriving and may you have a thriving new year. Happy New Year.

Kae: 53:59

It was great chatting with you. Thank you. It's been wonderful chatting with you as well.

Zohra: 54:03

Absolutely.

Kae: 54:04

Thank you so much.

Zohra: 54:05

Listen to Insight Techcom on your favorite app and follow me on LinkedIn or visit me at www.inside techcom.show. Catch you soon on another episode. Thank you for listening. Bye bye.