Zohra 0:08

Hello listeners. If you are curious about technical communications, then this podcast is for you. On each episode, I will interview a guest who will share the unique journey. This is Insight Techcom with Sahara Mutabana. Let's get started. Hi folks. Welcome to the Insight Techcom show. Today we are going to try something new and something fun. Well, I'm in the hot seat today, and my husband, Iqbal Mutabana, who also goes by the name Ike in his world, is going to interview me. So I'm just going to go ahead and hand it over to him and wish me luck. Hey Iqbal, welcome on my show.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Hello, hello, hello. Long time no see.

Zohra 0:53

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Well, it was a long journey getting from where you're sitting to where I'm sitting in the house as we record this show. But I am thrilled to be here. Big supporter of my better half and everything she's accomplished and this incredible show that she's built. So I'm totally psyched to have this conversation with her. I know we're going to have fun, and I hope all of you listening out there are going to have fun hearing Zora Mutabana's journey into the techcom industry. So let's get started.

Zohra 1:30

Yes, let's get started. And I do want to say, you know, my husband has been my biggest cheerleader. So I'm so, so happy to have him interview me. I am a little scared of him, but hey, you know what? We're going to have fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Come on, I've got pom-poms in my hand and I'm dancing up and down, right? All right, let's go. So, you know, I think there are a few different ways we can we can get going, right? And I'm thinking that perhaps considering the fact that we're we're not just partners in in many things, but yeah, we're also partners in in life, right? So there's a there's an intermingled, intertwined journey that we've gone through. And um, I have been fortunate to see Zora really actually enter the techcom industry, you know, from where she came and the her entire journey through this process. So I will have to control myself into not interjecting, but Zora has given me permission to give my take on things when I see that you know there's something that I observed that was might be of interest, right? So let's get started. Anyhow, so Zora, let's let's actually get started for from before you met me, right? Before we met. When I met you, you were working in one of probably the second largest news media organizations in India, in in Bombay. That's right. So tell us the journey of how you got there from where you started. Sure.

Zohra 3:00

So I I have to go many moons, go back many moons. So I started my journey. I I first of all did an undergrad in English literature. And I also had a certificate in computers, and I was looking for an opportunity, basically, just anything that I could apply to. And this opportunity came by. The company, the news media organization is called Indian Express. And like you said, it was one of the top. I don't agree, I don't think it was the second, I think it was the top, and it still is. But they had an ad out in the paper. They were looking for something called information analyst, and it didn't really have much detail to it, much description to it. But I felt like I could apply because they were looking for the basic requirement was you needed to have an undergrad in English literature and you needed to have some sort of computer knowledge. And they were building a team actually. So the the news media organization had just launched a startup division and they wanted to build a team. And when they put out that ad, I don't think even they had exactly a well-defined role. So I applied and I went through an interview process. And fortunately, I got through and I couldn't believe my eyes when I got it, when I got that offer letter. It was like a dream come true. And I even today, when I think about it, it's it's one of the most amazing memories that I hold on to dearly. So, anyways, I got the offer and I started.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

And like, I mean So let my stop you there for a second, right? There's an interesting backstory you just narrated, I think, that I'd like to sort of drill into a little bit. You know, you have a an undergraduate degree in English literature. Why did you get that certificate in computer studies? What prompted you to do that, considering the fact that you had a completely different undergraduate degree?

Zohra 4:52

Right. So I think that credit probably goes to my father. He was an advocate for having his kids educated and making sure that they have a secure career. And computers were the in thing. I'm, you know, I'm doing these air codes.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Right.

Zohra 5:10

And it was the in thing. And my dad thought that I had the inclination because I had taken a few computer courses in school, and he thought that maybe I have an, you know, I would do well. So he took me to this organization called NIIT, National Institute of Information Technology. At the time, it was again a private organization that was offering diploma courses. And my dad got me enrolled. He I had to go through an entrance test and I did really well on it. So my dad pulled in whatever resources he could because it was not cheap in those days. I don't know what the cost is now, but it wasn't cheap. And he enrolled me into a two-year program, and he was very invested to get through this program.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Well, by the way, we're dating ourselves a lot in this process, right? In this conversation, we're talking about the days when computers were supposedly the in thing because it was new. We're talking about the days when you saw an ad in a newspaper.

Zohra 6:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Right?

Zohra 6:04

So we are absolutely dating ourselves, and I think we're taking a risk there, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Cool. You know, you got that education in computer studies through that to your course.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

But it sounds like we're not specifically trying to get into a computer programming career or anything of the sort. You were really trying to use that as a way to add skills to your undergraduate degree and try to find an opportunity that could use all those multiple skills you were developing.

Zohra 6:36

Probably, yes. I think I would have liked to start it off as a programmer. And probably that was an objective that my dad got me enrolled in this diploma program. But uh, when I saw this job description, I felt like it was something that I could fit into because it was asking for technical skills and literature skills, not literature, but really writing skills. And it was a good marriage of the two.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

That's great. So since we're talking about journeys and we're talking about helping your audience understand how different skills and experience they build contributes towards your journeys through the technical communication space, right? Tell me a little bit more about that information analyst role. What was that role about and what you know caught your attention to it and what you actually did in that role?

Zohra 7:30

Sure. Like I said, the description was a little vague, but then once I started, I felt it was open-ended enough so that I could kind of move through it easily. One of the things that we wanted to do was we wanted to launch our own website. And there was a website.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Big thing in those days.

Zohra 7:49

It was a very big thing in those days. In fact, I created my first Hotmail account, right? And you had this broadband connection. So I'm like, oh, first of all, I have access to the internet and I wanted to learn everything about the internet. So this was a great way for me to learn hands-on. But at the same time, the objectives were they wanted to launch a website, and they also wanted to have analytics done on that website. So, and they wanted me to go register the domains and manage that and then also be sort of a liaison between the marketing team and the development team. So I ended up sort of wearing different hats, multiple hats in that role. And it exposed me to the business side as well as the technical side.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Right.

Zohra 8:35

Uh the development side of things.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Yeah, very interesting. All that stuff brings so many memories back. You know, Hotmail, you know, when that launched, it was such an interesting thing. And for those of us who knew a little bit about computers, I mean it was very exciting to have a web-based, you know, browser-based email thing because otherwise it was this really crazy Unix or DOS terminal-based command prompt type of email system. And I remember talking to a few non-computer literate folks in my circles. And when I told them about Hotmail, they thought I was talking about some pornographic, yeah, fun stuff. But sounds like this was a really interesting opportunity for you because you got to really put your fingers into a whole bunch of different departments and really learn about different aspects of what is put together when information has to flow within a media organization and then actually go out to consumers.

Zohra 9:30

Yes, absolutely. And because it was such a an organization that was just about, it was just taking, I mean, it was it was in a very nascent stage.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

You mean the online part of it?

Zohra 9:41

The online division, the startup itself, right? The uh startup division. So there was a lot of room for us to be creative and innovative and make that role a little bit of, you know, give it my own personal touch as well. So not only was the startup company flexible about it, but they'd also given me the leeway to grow and learn. I think it was a perfect opportunity that came my way.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

So funny story here for your listeners. And I'll let you say the story, but I'll I'll give an introduction to it. Last night, Zora and I and our young daughters, we were having a discussion after dinner, and and our daughter asked us about, you know, whether we like the show The Office. And Zora started talking about some stories from that first job that she's just referencing at this online media organization. Some really funny stories. Some of them I think are probably not appropriate for sharing on this show, but the one that I think is really interesting is the elephant one. So without naming names, very quickly tell us about that elephant story.

Zohra 10:44

Yes. So, like I said, we were trying to launch a website and we wanted to promote it.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Yeah.

Zohra 10:50

The head of marketing, that person, the head, wanted to promote it in a very unique way. So the head decided that they will hire an elephant with the banner and have that elephant sit right in the middle of this commercial center in Mumbai. And so it turns out that the elephant literally went on a strike because it was hungry. I I can't re I don't recall the I can't recall the specifics, but we had to get the elephant out because it was blocking traffic in a city like Mumbai, right in the middle of the commercial center. So we had to bribe the elephant with bananas.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Fun stuff. Yeah, advertising a website with an elephant.

Zohra 11:33

Yeah, so I think it was a very unique and creative way of launching our website.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

I I'm sure it got attention.

Zohra 11:40

It got a lot of attention, yes. And so that's where you know you got to think out of the box sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Right, right. Yes, that's the learning you get out of it.

Zohra 11:49

Yes, and this was literally like my first week at the company, and it was just hilarious.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

Fantastic, cool. Well, good. Look, so we talked about that, and I think we should jump ahead a little bit. So you were there when I met you, and then we started dating and eventually decided that we were going to be together. And in that period, you got an opportunity with a company in Indonesia to be a communications manager for them. Tell us about that opportunity and what you did in that role.

Zohra 12:23

Yes, I think that was another lucky break because I got that lucky break through you, of course, thanks to Sachin. The company was called SDI at the time, and they were looking again. So basically, what they really wanted me to do was to launch a newsletter for them. And it was being done before, and somehow it had just been discontinued. But anyway, so they wanted to revive that newsletter. And my goal was to get the newsletter out, and that I had to sort of build a team, decide what the content would be, and you know, work with the vendors to get the best rates, because in those days you had to go to a third party to have it printed for you. So basically, just going through that entire process was amazing. And the interesting outcome there for me personally was learning the language, Bahasa Indonesia. And it was fun because English is not a commonly spoken language. So I had to talk to the local vendors in Bahasa, Indonesia. So I had to learn that language and I had to hit the ground running immediately. So again, I gained invaluable experience there.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

So, yeah, so you you know you had a really good experience there in Indonesia. I think what's interesting, the observation I would make here, especially for our young listeners on your show, is that when you are in non-traditional careers, right? When you are in careers, you come from non-traditional backgrounds. It's very important to take opportunities and try to learn as much as you can from them, which is really what Zora, you've done, right? You've found opportunity as an informational analyst, a job that was not well described, and yet you learned a lot and contributed a lot to your organization. That then led to a more substantial type of opportunity where you actually were able to create content. And I think even until then, you had no idea about the existence of the technical communication field, right?

Zohra 14:16

No, of course not, because technical writing did not exist.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

At least in Asia.

Zohra 14:21

At least in yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So yeah, and then you know, the being gutsy enough to go and learn a new language, hit the ground running, do everything in six months. It's both fun, exhilarating, but you know, I'm sure it was super scary as well.

Zohra 14:35

No, actually, it wasn't. I did not, no, not at all. Not for me.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

That's great. That's great. I guess for some people that could be scary, but I think that could be scary, yes.

Zohra 14:44

And I think also because I knew the people, I knew the company that I was going to. Right. So that definitely gave me a sense of comfort.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Right.

Zohra 14:52

And everything was provided for. So I was being taken care of. So that's a risk. When you take any risk of that type, you have to be well informed. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Right. Yeah. Awesome. So then let's let's zoom ahead at that point. You know, once you were done with that assignment, in that period of time is when we, you know, got married and we made our way to the US. Let's talk about our arrival in the US together. So I had already been here before Zora for a master's degree, and then I'd actually returned back to India. I was trying to get a break in India and then later on in Indonesia as well, in starting my own business, which, you know, long story short, did not work out. We got married, came back to the US. Let's start from there. Now, at that point, you arrived in the US, and what I saw was you were struggling to figure out how to translate the experience and skills you had gained in India and Indonesia into opportunities in the US.

Zohra 15:49

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Right. So tell our audience what was that first thing that happened that got you intrigued about technical writing?

Zohra 15:59

So a very close friend of ours, and I'm eternally grateful to him, Murtuza Vasovala, he was working with a company called Vignette at the time. And he suggested that there is this career called technical writing. Why don't you give it a shot? So he arranged for an interview with I think their uh documentation manager at the time. She interviewed me and I bombed it. Bombed it in a bad way. Because, and I will tell you why. Although I had a background in English literature and although I had worked for a media company, the field was quite mature. It had matured here in the US. It had a very defined scope, and I was unaware, and I was using language with flourish. And that was not what the manager was looking for. So in that interview, she wanted me to give some examples. How would I approach? I had no idea about audience analysis. And so we got into these questions, and those are the areas where I was lacking the knowledge. And so she recommended that, hey, you know what? I think you can do this, but I I suggest you go get a formal education in this field. And that is what put me on this path to acquiring a formal education.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Right. In technical writing.

Zohra 17:17

So in technical writing, yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Fantastic. Yeah. And then, you know, from there is when you started researching universities and you found an opportunity to pursue a master's at Northeastern University in Boston. But there was a hiccup there, right? Because you came with a three-year undergraduate degree from India, which is valid in India, but in the US, they tend to consider that as a partial undergraduate degree. Right. And they wanted you to complete some extra courses that would, in their mind, would bridge the gap between the Indian degree equivalent and the US degree equivalent. So you went to Harvard University where you managed to go into the extension school. Tell us about the kind of courses you took there.

Zohra 18:03

So yes, uh, you're right. I did take a few courses at Harvard, and I don't remember exactly what the titles were, but one of them was law and writing, one was writing for technology. And the third one was about analytical writing and critical reasoning along those lines. So it sort of helped me, in a way, build this muscle that didn't exist, so to speak, to sort of really do a deep dive, to start understanding audience analysis, start understanding what genre am I writing for. These were some of the words that did not exist in my vocabulary. And I started absorbing, and that sort of really became my ladder to the next step. Started bridging me because when I went to Northeastern, that's so having completed the requirements at Harvard, I applied to Northeastern. And those credits that I earned, it was not just credits, but it was also the content that helped me significantly to sort of take on the challenge of doing a master's at Northeastern. And it gave me the language, it sort of equipped me to really enter and do a master's program here.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Right, right. So tell us a little bit about the master's program at Northeastern, right? What was the broad parameters of that program? And what were you hoping to get out of it? Did you get what you wanted from it? And what are the things that you I think still carry with you from what you learned there?

Zohra 19:29

So the program was called Master's in Technical and Professional Writing, and it was part of the Department of English. Of course, technical writing was going to be the focus of that, but it also had a very strong research component to it. And we studied information architecture, we learned coding, we learned how to do proofreading and editing. So it was a very holistic curriculum. It was not just writing. So the coding classes, we took those through the Department of Engineering. We also had a course on proposal writing. So it really set you up. It was technical and professional writing. So that was what it was geared for.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Was it specifically geared towards the technology industry? Or were there other industries that you got exposure to as well?

Zohra 20:18

I think it primarily was focused on technology, but things like proposal writing and the research component were not really technology. But that against, you know, going back to that critical reasoning that we talk about and information architecture and uh doing content analysis and how do you, you know, today content strategy, content uh design, these are some emerging, I would say, topics. They've been there for the last five to seven years, but they're becoming more well-defined. But I believe that the root is in the courses that I took. I'm able to better understand and grasp and process because of my training at Northingstone. Right, right. So it did give me that focus. And I think your question was, how has it helped you today? First of all, it was it introduced me to the language that is being used within the field at the time, and it continues to, you know, there are some things that stay. We also looked at how did technical communication came to be as a field in the US. We studied that. So we sort of studied the history of the profession. And we also actually did how do you do biomedical writing? That was another course. So we did have some choices that we could take, and I think we could have geared, if I didn't want technical writing per se in technology, then I could have pivoted and done gone into a medical field. Let's say if I had a medical background. So this degree would have helped me regardless. But coming back to the point, the language that I use today is because of uh and the training and the skills. Yes. So I've continuously built upon it, and it has helped me, I think, really grow in my career.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Okay. This is all obviously, you know, hopefully very useful to all budding technical writers, technical communicators out there to understand why having that kind of academic exposure and training is important. I mean, not to say that people have not transitioned into your profession without that academic background, you know, if they have the natural inclination towards it. And that's true of any profession, right? Even in engineering, you'll find people without an engineering degree who, you know, really good at what they do and have been able to break into that. But there's clearly a value that you received from that rigorous academic training that is holding you in good stead today. One thing I'd like to have you talk a little bit about is, you know, obviously, if you had waited till you finished the degree and then look for a job, you would have been hampered by the fact that you had did not have a technical writing career before that degree. And then you're looking for a job, you would have ended up having to compete completely at the fresh graduate level. That's right. Right. What did you do while you were in that degree program that helped you start to gain that experience so that you could break in a little bit easier after graduating?

Zohra 23:17

Yes. So you're right. And I think I also want to make it clear that when I applied and that academic exposure, in a way, was setting me back by a couple of years. But at the same time, it was level setting me with the beginner-level technical writers. So I was, in a way, not really taking many steps back. It was, I was at a good place in that sense. But while I was doing my program, you're right, I did want to build that skill and I wanted to build that experience. And again, there was a company at the time that I applied to for an internship. I was on a student visa. And it was also one of the requirements, actually, that I go acquire this formal training while I'm in the program. And I think that benefited me again. Now, this was not a very typical technical writing role, but what they wanted me to write was a white paper. So it required me to sort of tap into some of the soft skills that you need as a technical writer.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

White paper for a technology product.

Zohra 24:18

Right. Yes, white paper for a technology product. So in that role as an intern, I ended up learning a new tool. I ended up learning how to interview my subject matter experts. Of course, I was working for a technology company. It was going to add value, right? It was a great thing to show on my resume. And at the end of it, that two and a half months, it was over the summer, I had a deliverable and the company liked it, of course, and they published it. So it had a very clear purpose.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

And now you had a sample that you could use for your job, right?

Zohra 24:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Okay. So let me interject here, if you don't mind, and share something with your audience, right? Especially your young audience who's trying to get a break-in in technical writing. And this applies to literally any field you want to get a break in. But what you did, Zora, is I think exactly the mindset that you need to have, which is don't go through your entire degree program simply gaining the academic skills. Find opportunities to create value on the industry side. And once you do that, doesn't matter how you do it, right? Any kind of deliverable that you produce becomes something that you can use as part of your sample, your portfolio, that becomes a real thing you can show. And I can speak a little bit more about this also because I, even though my current life is in a completely different space in the commercial real estate industry, my past life was in the technology industry. I hired a lot of interns. And one of the things, advice I always gave interns, was that it doesn't matter. You don't have to do an internship for having to earn money. If you can get some income out of it, great. But it is a stepping stone towards something bigger. So as a technical writer, if you get an opportunity to write a technical document, a white paper, a proposal, doesn't matter what it is. If you get an opportunity to write for a formal technical organization, or even if you go do it for one of the open source projects that are out there, take the opportunity, volunteer your yourself and use that as your stepping stone.

Zohra 26:25

Yep, really good tips there. Absolutely. And actually, some of the guests that I interviewed, Ibal, you know, have pretty much gone through that same experience and they're going places today. So it definitely would resonate with my audience.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

That's wonderful. Interesting. So from there on, then you basically, you know, you finish your master's degree, you got a break in the industry, and you've gone through multiple jobs there. So I don't want to go through every single opportunity you've you've really gone through.

Zohra 26:55

Yeah, neither do I.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

What I'd like to do is to have you help your audience understand from the experience that you've had after you know, in the formal technical writing career in various technology companies, what kind of things have you appreciated, learned, and what are the things that you've learned which you would say technical writers should not do? Or that you know, those are not ideal things for an organization to do in working with technical writers.

Zohra 27:32

Okay, that's a loaded question.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Very loaded. It is a loaded question.

Zohra 27:35

So let's break it down. Let's why don't you break it down for me? You know, let's summarize, right? Where am I today and what can I share from my experience with my audience?

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Right.

Zohra 27:45

Of course, being open-minded is very important. And the field of technical communication, I prefer not calling it technical writing because I think it is not all-encompassing. I like to think it's communication, it's content that we are creating. And content is king slash queen. And we want to make sure that we believe when we are creating content that this content is going to bring value to the company, that it's providing business value. I think that is my biggest takeaway from my experience that you have to get your seat at the table. You have to speak for yourself, for your profession. And when you think, when you're creating content, think how is this content solving a business problem? And then approach it in that manner. Because when you do that, you are elevating your profession and your contribution to your company. Because we all can write if you're doing what you're doing, whether you're a UX writer or content strategist, information architect, no matter what you're doing, you have to think about how am I bringing business value? What problem am I solving? And that is very critical. Another thing that I've gone through this journey as a technical writer, we silo ourselves. And for some reason, we also believe that we are at, like we are not bringing that business value.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

You look upon yourself as being very low on the food chain, basically.

Zohra 29:07

Yes. But we are introverted, and I think this is very critical. This is very, very critical that we have to appreciate, we have to take charge and bring the value that we bring to the company and talk about it. So you have to start looking at not, oh, we are we are technical writers. No, you are creating content. And I will say this in the current job that I am at Blackboard, it has been a fantastic experience because that is what the leaders of the team are doing, the head of the department is doing. One, it's not, they've pivoted, they're not calling the team technical writing or documentation, because then that becomes a very passive role. It's called strategic content development. That is very empowering. And building partnerships with the design team, with the product management teams, and having us embedded and making sure that we are at the table. So I think that is the most important thing. You have to be visible.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Right. And find ways to make yourself visible and explain and be able to demonstrate the value. That's great, really interesting stuff there, Zora, because just being very candid, you know, in my past life in the technology industry, right? Or and being a I used to be a chief technology officer at the time when I finally transitioned out of that life altogether. But I have to say very candidly that despite the fact that I'm married to you, such an accomplished technical writer, an accomplished technical communications specialist, I struggled when I used to form my teams. I used to struggle with the figuring out what was the value of a technical communications person in my team. And I don't think I ever fully figured it out. Also, possibly because I did not meet people like you who could articulate that value and prove and provide that value, right? And explain how it works. So I think what you're advising, you know, your listeners and technical writers who are listening to you, that they have to step up to the plate and be able to demonstrate that value is super important. There's some roles where that value is just apparent, and some roles where you have to be able to make sure that you educate the management to understand it, right? Super helpful. You've talked about what a technical writer should do. Tell us a little bit about what are enabling and disabling environments in which you work, have worked, right? What kind of environment has given you the strength and enabled you to perform and overperform versus what kind of environments have brought you down? Because I think that is something important for your listeners to understand. And we're not going to try and pinpoint specific organizations. That's not our intention here. But the intention is to make sure that when technical writers find jobs in organizations, that they think about the environment around them and make sure they don't allow themselves to get trapped in environments that are not enabling in nature. Right. So explain what your experience has been about, what has enabled you and what has brought you down.

Zohra 32:14

So I worked for uh again a small company in Boston. It was, I mean, pretty much at the start of my career, I had worked for this company. I had interned there after my internship that I did during my master's. When I graduated, it was at this particular company. It no longer exists, but it was at this company, uh, it was called Curion. And that company enabled me, the management there enabled me because they found value. My manager, Lynn Swenson, I will again, another person that I'm eternally grateful for. She knew how to lead a documentation team. And she was there as my guide. And like I shared earlier, she knew the value of content. And the company at the time was switching from waterfall to agile. And the manager knew exactly how to plug in, how to adapt, how to evolve. That was enabling me to shine as well through her and through my work. And she was always there. My manager was always there in case I had any situations where I didn't feel like I was having buy-in from product management. So one is you need a manager who's going to be supportive, who believes in the team, right? So those are all enablers, I think, uh, without going into too much detail.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

No, I think you need to talk a little bit more about this, or I think you're you've skipped it too much on the surface. So I understand that your manager has to be supportive, and that is true of any job. But I think what I'm trying to really get out of you here is what was the structure of the company and the way you were embedded in the development process that enabled you? That's really what is going to be useful.

Zohra 33:56

I think the one thing, the reason I touch upon the manager so much is because many a times the teams are led by managers who do not understand the documentation process.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

That's a great point.

Zohra 34:06

They trivialize it and the team is lost at that point because they have no. So somebody that is leading the team should be aware of what the process is and what value the team brings, because otherwise the manager cannot support, cannot be supportive. So I think that is what I wanted to bring to the surface. But then because this particular company was an agile shop, we were very embedded, and each development deliverable had documentation as part of the product deliverable. So we were one of the deliverables and we were part of the definition of done. So anything that got signed off and the product was released or a functionality was released, documentation had to go with it, which meant that I got that seat at the table. And the head of engineering, he understood the value of content, the value of even not just the manager, I think it was across the board, you know, all the way up to the CEO. We had access to the CEO. We could go up to the CEO because it was a small company. We could go and tell them why something should be done a certain way. So we were also sometimes part of POCs. They would pull pro functional teams together for proof of concept. Exactly. So all these things sort of gave me the confidence to speak up. If I felt either I found an opportunity, and if I didn't find an opportunity, I sought out that opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

And what I can add is that the description you gave about being part of the deliverable process, being part of the proof of concept, being part of the actual definition of done. The reason why these things are important is because at the end of the day, what matters is two things. Number one is how are you enabling the company to sell more of their product? And number two, how are you contributing to the value of the product once it's in the hands of the customer? And technical writers need to make sure that their content is acknowledged as being part of those two basic aspects of business value. Right? Are you providing value at the time of being able to help the company get more customers, convince a customer that for to use that product? And then are you part of the value of actually helping them use that product in an optimal way that then makes them a loyal customer of the company? Right?

Zohra 36:31

So I actually want to add one more thing to that, uh. One is, you know, I've also been part of another company because I've gone through many companies, and this was at a cybersecurity company, and they were trying to pitch to a prospect.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Right.

Zohra 36:45

And that prospect, it was a $3 million deal. That customer, the prospect, wanted to make sure that this company had great documentation.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Right.

Zohra 36:54

So they knew that the customer support is great, but they also wanted to be assured that the technical content that was being created was of great value. So we had to prepare content.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Yeah.

Zohra 37:06

And it was part of the pitch. The sales team went with that. Imagine how empowering that is.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zohra 37:12

So not only are we part of the process after the product is created, but we can even be part of the sales process because eventually it is content. And now with uh, you know, RoboChats and artificial intelligence, there's a lot of potential for writers, for content creators to plug in and find value. So you have to sometimes seek out that value. Where can you solve a problem? Again, going back to that premise, you know, you're you're there to solve a problem and you're closest to the customer in a way. So you can be part of that whole pipeline.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

Makes sense. Makes sense. You know, I always look at any successful business and its components through a very simple lens. And this lens, actually, I learned from watching a show run by a guy called Marcus Lemon called the Profit Guy. And he always says that any business is made or broken on three things people, product, and process. Right? So you touched upon people, right? The having the right team, having the right manager makes a huge difference.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

You talked about product, which is basically how you create value for the customer who is actually consuming that product. And the third part is process. You hinted upon it in terms of how being embedded is helpful and creates the ability for technical writers to really shine. But then process is also the thing that can bring you down.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

I know it's a leading question because I wanted to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

Is what are the broken processes that can bring a technical writer down?

Zohra 38:46

Every company that I've been part of, where the process was adaptable, the team was cross-functional, and where we were given a seat at the table, we found the most success.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

But there were also process issues that were keeping you down.

Zohra 39:01

There were process issues as well. One was when we are creating content, we are working in tandem with development. And if that content has to flow to the content team, but sometimes when there is that gap, or if you know the development team is not doing the handover, having access to subject matter experts, having access to the QA team because that partnership is very valuable. Working with the UX team when you're not embedded, when things are thrown over the wall, content is thrown over the wall. So the content creators, you know, the technical communicators, we are not part of that process, right? Right from the wireframing and even prior, the discovery with the customer, sitting in on those meetings, the planning that happens. If you don't have access, then that is a broken process. So technical writers, technical communicators have to absolutely advocate for themselves. And if this is, if it is a broken process, I highly suggest that you sit down with the team and tell them why it is important. Because the earlier you're part of the process, the more you can work in sync with development, with UX and create that content. Another interesting thing that I came about, you know, I'm doing a lot of UX writing right now. And one of the approaches that many uh the this particular UX team that I was part of in my past, you have Lauren Ibsen. It's just gibberish that's filled in.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

I was reading UX design, you mean?

Zohra 40:34

In UX design, yes. But I've been reading a lot about UX. How do you UX design and content go together? So putting in that gibberish actually defeats the purpose. So when you're creating the wireframing, when you're creating the UX design, you want to make sure that you're putting in the right content there. And that is the process that we are following.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

That's contextualizing it in everybody's mind at the right time.

Zohra 40:56

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

You're making good decisions on both the design and the content simultaneously.

Zohra 41:01

Exactly, because they are not separate from each other. You cannot just have design without content.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Right.

Zohra 41:08

And when they are built together in sync, you immediately discover the value as a team.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

It becomes more meaningful.

Zohra 41:16

It's more meaningful, exactly. So it's more purposeful. And so going back to the process that was broken, and then I've given an example in my current situation where I am part of teams where this is happening in sync.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

It's beautiful.

Zohra 41:28

It's beautiful. It is beautiful, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Good. Okay, like you know what? We've talked a lot about your career and about what's worked, what's not worked, you know, lessons learned and all of that stuff. There is one important thing that we've left out, which is your volunteer work in your profession. Because that is another huge aspect, I believe, of your success. Right. I'm a huge fan of your entire journey, Zora, and your success. And I strongly believe that the effort that you've put in over the last many, many years, being a volunteer, offering your voluntary services in terms of your experience, your knowledge, your time, and willing to help, I think makes a critical difference, not just in your own career, but in furthering the cause of your profession and ensuring that others are successful. So talk to us about your volunteer work in your profession, what you hope your listeners will do in order to contribute back.

Zohra 42:29

First of all, thank you for being appreciative because again, that's without that support, it's hard for me to go and volunteer my time. But yes, volunteering, I think again, I sort of when I started my career, I was looking for my tribe and I discovered STC, Society for Technical Communication. And I actually, while I was a student, I decided to participate as a judge. Uh, the Boston chapter at the time had a competition and they wanted young judges. So I volunteered, not knowing. But why I did that, there were selfish reasons, because I wanted to see what kind of work is already being produced so that I could take some of that back to school and make sure that the artifacts that I'm creating for my program are of quality. So that's how it started. I also volunteered to write a newsletter article. So it started in small ways, but what it did was it sort of connected me to my tribe, to the more experienced writers. And I highly recommend that the young listeners to kind of absorb that. You know, you cannot work in a silo. You can start off your career. There are many opportunities out there. Find your tribe and connect and participate. Because when you do that, you learn and grow.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

Not just that, you also build a network that then supports you to put it.

Zohra 43:52

When I say that, yeah, absolutely. It is a symbiotic relationship. You know, you're not only are you giving, but you're taking a lot from that. You may not realize it in the moment, but every move, right? We moved from Boston to Dallas. How did I find my first break? It was thanks to Bob Wand. Those networks that you create, you can tap into now it's thanks to the community that I've been able to conduct this podcast. You know, have these amazing guests on my show. So it really does bring value. You grow in your profession when you volunteer. Hands-on experience is one way to do it, but then you also have to be connected because if you want to understand how the community is growing, what are the new trends, you know, and it's it's actually a growing field, and there is a lot of push and pull. Are we UX writers? Are we information architects? What are we? And that is an amazing intersection to be part of an evolution, exactly. So as I said, and you also get to learn and grow skills. For example, you may not get an opportunity to be a team lead or a manager, but when you volunteer, you get to wear those facts.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

So that's another important you can take back to eventually be able to get a position of that type.

Zohra 45:10

Not everybody wants to be a documentation manager or a team manager. But at the at the same time, it's a skill that you want to develop. Analysis, working with numbers. I worked as a treasurer. I don't like numbers, but having gone through that role, I feel a little bit more confident.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Right.

Zohra 45:26

Yeah, you're not just working in your profession, in your field, but you're also doing other things. You're growing these other soft skills which you may not be aware of.

unknown 45:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

And they all go back to eventually help you in your job as well, right? Because once you develop the understanding of numbers, now when you go back to your job, you may not necessarily need to use numbers as a way to fulfill your deliverable, but it does help you understand the value that you are creating for the business.

unknown 45:52

Right?

SPEAKER_00 45:52

Yeah, I mean it flows into a project plan, flows into a business plan.

Zohra 45:55

Yes. And you know, it also makes you a better problem solver because when you're doing it as a volunteer, what happens is it's not a paid position. So you have a lot more support from your community. So you figure out, oh, wait, I can probably apply this to some of the challenges. Or let's say you're trying to present to your company something that you want. You take it to this network that try, you know, your community and present. I mean, I'm giving a very small example, but that's how it has helped me. I participated in a lighting.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

You learn how to do marketing uh using MailChimp.

Zohra 46:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

Things that you would not get to do in your normal job.

Zohra 46:31

In your normal job, exactly. So as technical writers, as technical communicators, when you're hired, you look at the job description, one of the most important things that they focus on is the tools. I'm actually very tool agnostic. That's I don't think I I yes, having understanding how authoring tools work is important. Understanding the concept of what a data is, data framework is what is single sourcing.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

I mean how version control works, how version control works.

Zohra 47:00

But the tools per itself, they do not matter.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Right.

Zohra 47:03

And literally, most job descriptions are looking for unicorns. How do you become a unicorn by volunteering in a manner of speaking?

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Beautifully said, beautifully said. Love that. I will withhold comment on the style of thank you that you just said. But what I will say is that you know, I know that you represent the Society for Technical Communication, the STC as an organization.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

Um, and you are now the president of the North uh Texas chapter. So I know that that is very dear and near to your heart.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:35

But I think it's important to make the point that while you would love to have people volunteer and become part of the organization, that'll be great. The real more important thing is to find the organization that works for you. It doesn't matter what it is.

Zohra 47:49

Yes, there are some really good organizations out there. Uh, I will, you know, give a shout out to Write the Doc. There is Writers UX where I got my first opportunity to present at a conference. So there are many, many opportunities that you can plug into.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Yeah.

Zohra 48:04

But seek out your community and be part of it. I think meetups are sort of becoming passe lately, especially with the pandemic. So, yes, there are many organizations.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Okay. I think we've sort of covered a whole bunch of things and hopefully created some value for your listeners in learning from your story, or at least enjoying your story. I think I'd like to leave on an enjoyable note. If you can try to recall and think of any one incident during your entire tech writing career or tech com career that is just funny, hilarious, something that tickles you, even when you think about it today.

Zohra 48:41

Yeah, it has been funny to me, really. So I was obviously trained in British English, and I, you know, would write my content using British spelling.

SPEAKER_00 48:54

And the editor C O L O U R instead of C O L O R.

Zohra 48:58

Exactly. And there are many other words. So and the editor, the very first time that I turned in my copy, this was a print PDF, and I had to print it out and turn it into my editor. And my editor, it's all redlined. And I'm thinking, what happened here? Not even realizing that it was not grammar or anything else, but it was just my spellings that I was using. So that, yes, so I have I have to even today constantly remind myself, hey, do not use British spellings because that is my natural way of thinking and processing. And I was doing that even lately with uh some content that I was creating for STC. And I'm thinking, oh boy, if there was an editor, it would all be redlined. Probably not as much today, but it that's how it started. And I've I've learned, you know, you like learn writing for your audience. That was the best way for me to learn. How do you write, even though you're writing in English, how do you write for an American audience versus a British audience?

SPEAKER_00 49:59

Right. All the different types of English that exist out there in the world, right? Exactly. And on that note, it reminded me, on that note, it reminded me of a really funny incident at the time you were doing those undergraduate bridge courses at Harvard. Right. That you told me about when you were supposed to meet your teaching assistant. I'm going to recall that. So teaching assistant, Zora was supposed to meet her for you know, getting some clarification on some of the notes from previous class session. And she reaches there early at wherever in the campus she was meeting that that TA, you know, spending some time looking around. It was a beautiful, I think it was a science building, beautiful building. The TA right. I think it was the Harvard campus. Oh, I'm so sorry, I'm late. And Zora tells her, Yeah, yeah. And Zora tells her, Oh, not a problem. I was freaking out. And this TA is so apologetically, like, I'm so sorry you're freaking out. I didn't intend to be so late. I know it's a new place for you, and Jura. And you're puzzled because you're like, I'm having fun. And the reason why this is funny is because the Indianism of that word is that the word freaking out in India actually is a colloquial term to mean you're having fun, which is the exact opposite of what it means you're in the US. And of course, the TA was taking this as meaning that you were really having a tough time and that you were, you know, unhappy about your situation. Well, you really were trying to convey that you were actually just enjoying your time there. The tale of the multiple Englishes. Awesome. So I think this has been fantastic. I think I feel like I have poked you enough to cover as much as I could. And I know that I might have a hard time with you if you were unhappy with things I asked you, and I might have to sleep on the couch. But that's okay. Hopefully, this has been fun for your audience and they've been able to enjoy listening to your journey. And I know this is going to be your last episode of this season.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Because you're going to start the next season with a brand new theme and a brand new set of guests providing a lot of value. So I'm just going to put in a pitch for you, Zora, and for your amazing podcast show, the Inside Techcom show. Listeners, you got to subscribe to it so that you're not waiting for Zora to tell you to listen to an episode. She's got amazing guests, amazing stories going on, amazing things she's sharing, and getting her guests to share with you. And I know for a fact that the next season is going to be incredible. It's going to provide so much value that you don't want to miss a single episode of the next one. So make sure that after listening to this, you subscribe to this show right away so that you get notified when the first episode of the next season goes out.

Zohra 52:51

Oh, thank you, Iqbal. That was so super sweet of you.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

I don't have to sleep on the couch, right?

Zohra 52:57

No, you don't have to. But yes, I definitely want to shout out for all the guests that have supported me through this journey in the first season. And we pivot, we move from the professional and the personal journeys to how do you set yourself up for success in the next season? And with that, uh listeners, thank you so much and thank you so much, Igbal. I had fun with you for a change.

SPEAKER_00 53:22

For a change.

Zohra 53:24

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please share on your social media to help me reach a wider audience. Subscribe to the podcast on your favorite app, including Apple, Google, or Spotify. Follow us on Twitter at Inside Techcom or visit us at www.insidetechcom.show for the latest updates. Catch you on another episode.