S1E8 Switching Careers - Tips to make effective decisions with Teresa Nguyen

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 0:08

Hello, listeners. If you are curious about technical communications, then this podcast is for you. On each episode, I will interview a guest who will share the unique journey. This is insight tecom with Sahara with avana. Let's get started. I'm honored to welcome today's guest, and a very good friend of mine, Theresa. When Theresa, I hope I got your name right, but can you please pronounce it the original way for our listeners? Oh, I

Teresa Nguyen: 0:44

love that you are so intentional about that. Sora Yes, I'm so happy to be on the show. And I love that, you know, we are good friends beyond this. But yes, my last name is pronounced wing. It is a very common Vietnamese last name. I sometimes tell people it's the Smiths whose last names but yeah, that's the accent. It's kind of a all of the letters are silent.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 1:08

Yes. And I think I hope I did justice to your last name. You really did. I keep practicing. I promise about that. You did wonderful. I think you're in different ways. And you were Yeah. I'm close. Right. So Teresa, how are you doing today?

Teresa Nguyen: 1:24

I am doing wonderful. It's a beautiful winter day here in Dallas, Texas. We're in the same part of the country and state. So yeah,

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 1:33

I would agree. Yes. And I love your background if our listeners could see, as you said, it's very Zen. So with that Zen teacher in our minds, let's move forward. Ah, yes. Yes. Nice, deep breath. This is gonna turn into a meditation. Let's attempt that. How am I bad? So, Teresa, tell us a little about yourself. Oh, gosh, oh, gosh. Yeah, no, it runs deep. But just a brief introduction will do for now.

Teresa Nguyen: 2:02

Yeah. So I am Vietnamese American. And the question of, you know, where are you from always comes at me at different different ways. But I feel really comfortable answering this question with you, you know, because we are friends. And we do know each other on a personal level. Professionally, I am a user experience researcher. Currently, I work with a consultancy in Dallas called Project 202. I work with different clients from all different industries. Yeah, that's probably the most relatable version of my identity to most of your listeners. And I could go on about more than that, if that's part of it.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 2:38

Yes, we and the whole intention is to kind of go on that journey with you to learn a little more about you, your profession.

Teresa Nguyen: 2:47

As we all know, we're winding down and pretty, very different here than any of us have really experienced before. But one thing that I've really actually appreciated, has been the opportunity and the time to reflect and like, really think about how important it is to me personally to be able to show up as my my whole self in any space. And not not that

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 3:09

I love that, you know, when you started with your introduction, Vietnamese American, we all have these identities that we tend to hide, and we only put a part of ourselves out there. So the fact that you're mentioning that you're trying to bring your whole self to wherever you are, sometimes it can be challenging. But it can also be very revealing. and refreshing. Yeah, revealing to yourself, you know who's so some of us haven't had the space to really think about who we are, where we come from, and also revealing about the spaces that we inhabit. That got me thinking that technical communications has a lot that intersects with user experience. And in terms of the user analysis, in terms of the usability in terms of the content that a user writes. And then content is the key here that intersects between user experience and technical communications. And I thought, wow, I'm having Teresa, very soon on my show. And I want to understand from her, how can these two fields kind of come together? And what can we take away from these fields?

Teresa Nguyen: 4:13

That is a really exciting preview of what is to come in this episode. I'm excited. As you were talking about user experience, the professional blends into the personal, especially lately, a lot for me. So I'm going to start with like, the most professional things, and we'll see where it goes. Yeah, so what I mean by that is, I mean, let's just take the title, or you know, the craft, if you will, of user experience, and let's look at experience, and experience isn't just digital, it isn't even just in person. It's a blend of everything in the way that you interpret the world. And from a user's perspective, I look at that as researcher as looking at them as a whole person. Yes, you you do want to you know, understand where the product You're testing or working on, you're trying to learn about or the domain fits into this person's life. But the most effective research and the most effective insights are going to consider this as a whole human being in a person. And that off, that presents a lot of challenges to, you know, because we have to think about our personal biases, you know, the ones we are and aren't aware of. So I love this field, because it is it's very human, it's about humans, and how to make life better for humans who use things that other humans make,

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 5:31

actually, you know, something that got my attention was when you said human, and when I started my career, what I heard first was human interaction. And I think, by by what the feed has come to be known today, as user experience, I think that human element has kind of somewhere been lost. And that is my perception, as I think deeper. But as you mentioned, the human element and the experience it kind of it's also again, revealing to me that no, the experience is you're you're you're starting to focus on the whole rather than just the user itself.

Teresa Nguyen: 6:06

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I know, we're going to talk about Technical Communication at some point and how I got into that, and why I'm probably mostly on the show. But I mean, really the I feel the responsibility of all of those crafts of content strategists of UX researchers, and designers of tech writers, technical communicators, our responsibility is to hold software and the products and the people who develop and make them and market those things, hold them accountable to the fact that it is for humans, a lot of people will say that they champion, you know, the user, in the humans in any discussion that has to do with that. So

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 6:41

Well, I I like the strong stand you're taking there, when you say that the people who are developing this, we have to make them accountable. I would love to dig deeper into that. But on another day, because I definitely would love to come back to that. And I could dedicate a whole episode to just talk about that. Because there's so much, so much that's going on with that word accountable there. And as a technical communicator, I'm thinking right, what I'm doing is my craft holding the people who are developing the product accountable. Because from from an outsider's perspective, that's not what's happening. But I think we are kind of starting to go into the philosophical aspects of our crafts. And I want to come back to you because your time is precious. And I want the user experience part of your journey to come through and shed light on what our listeners can take away. And with that, we could talk about how the two fields intersect. But you had a brief stay up kind of brief contact with technical communications. So can you share a little bit about that? What your background was, and how did you become a UX researcher, because you are not a UX researcher when you started your career? So definitely go ahead and share that with us.

Teresa Nguyen: 7:56

That's correct. Yeah. I hadn't even heard about UX or what it even was, it was just two letters that I saw somewhere. I didn't know what they meant. So I came from journalism, I went to school for journalism. And I did a mix of newspaper like print and television. So I did broadcast journalism. That sounds very cool. To me, actually. It was a pretty fun job. I will say, yeah, in. And I think the reason I brought up like the whole human experience, part of it was because that is really the the spread the through line of all three of these things. Because you know, what I love about all three of these of these different fields is that you have the opportunity to get paid to understand people better on a very human. Well, I love that. Yeah, and it's just something that it's just it's a no brainer for me as if I could do something like that as a career. I understood early on that there are different ways of that. And so journalism happened to be you know, the thing that I was interested in, because I was interested in current events I like to write, and I didn't even realize then, like, how many skills that I would pick up in it. And then that was then end up transferring really, really well into tech writing and UX. Yeah, I guess it makes sense to start off with what I liked about journalism and what I didn't like and why I moved, you know, from one to the next. Sure. Yeah, go ahead. So I mean, I, I just love that you get access as a journalist, you know, to different domains. I get to talk to other subject matter experts, if you will. In it, when I worked, I worked on the conservation beats for this community that I was in, so I got to follow the, you know, the county like naturalist and geologists around and that was kind of the subject matter that I was in then I also did like recreation. So I spoke with a lot of people who organized sports and community events like that. Wow. sounds fascinating. Yeah, it was fun. And it was it was in my alley, you know, because I was I was an athlete at the time, so I got to just

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 9:57

wait, you were an athlete. How did the two blend together? Now? This doesn't make sense. Okay. rewind it a little more.

Teresa Nguyen: 10:08

Yeah. So I played a lot of basketball. I was a basketball player. Okay. I went to college on a scholarship for it. And I majored in journalism. And yeah, played ball and reported the news.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 10:21

Oh, okay. Okay. So that inspired you to get into journalism. I will I think there were just two passions that I decided like two passions. All right. Okay. Now, something makes sense to me. Go ahead.

Teresa Nguyen: 10:34

Yeah, the password is probably the least related to any of this. I'm sure it'll we'll find a way for it to come full circle if we really trying to figure it out at try. Yeah, yeah. So so the journalism, you know, I love being able to interview people and come up with questions ahead of time, based on what we wanted to know, and what the story was, and how the story is compelling to a community and society. So storytelling is another thread that goes through all of these things. And yeah, it was also, I think, what tied directly most directly into how I ended up looking at technical writing as a career was the you know, the the process of researching, you know, potentially a very complicated matter, like a political issue or something, and understanding all of the nuances around it all the different viewpoints, and then distilling that into something that makes sense, something that is closer to plain language that you can report on TV, because the thing with communicating on screen is that you want to be very conversational. And so that's actually a skill, that it's still something I am polishing and working on. But writing, communicating through writing is different than communicating through speaking, you don't want to speak into your television into the people sitting on their couches, as if you were writing, you know, human. So the communication aspect of it really is, it was a challenge that I loved to take complex information and make it easy to understand. Yeah, and to get to do that in so many different fields and have access to that, which is really exciting. Because it's life is an adventure. And I love to, to look at it that way.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 12:15

I loved everything that you talked about, in your experience as a journalist, one was the storytelling aspect, and telling a compelling story. But then the challenge of, well, not the challenge, but the fact that when you're speaking, it's different from how you write how you communicate through writing. So is that the reason why you explored technical communications? Is that what you wanted to kind of polish up on? if you will? Yeah, that's

Teresa Nguyen: 12:42

definitely I'd said that that was the most direct like, thread. I mean, the other ones, I guess the one that really prompted me to take action was more of so you know, as a journalist, your job is to find the truth, and tell the truth. And to understand the problems, but your job is not to be the one to necessarily solve them. you're presenting the facts, you're presenting the story, your your points, got to be very objective about it. Yeah. And I say objective in, you know, with air quotes, because, yes, yes, no one is gonna be 100%. unbiased. Yeah, and that's not a bad thing. I think it's good. It's important to have a viewpoint and an opinion on things. But as a journalist, you know, there's there's a certain point that you can't cross, depending on who you work for, I guess, I think I do like kind of framing it through my desire to be able to solve problems into effect solutions to those problems about this transition into different fields. Because technical communication is about uncovering the truth and telling the truth and documenting the truth. You are writing? Yeah,

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 13:51

that sounds so deep. Sounds very deep, because I've never thought about technical communications as something that is uncovering the truth. And for you to share that perspective is actually pretty neat. I would say,

Teresa Nguyen: 14:05

yeah, yeah, that's some I've actually never worded it that way before. But thanks to the way that you're bringing this conversation and the opportunity, you're giving me to speak about it. I'm glad that came out. And I hope that offers a unique perspective, or at least another way of saying it.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 14:20

Yeah, I think when you think about your day to day as a writer, you're trying to document how the product works. But at the end of the day, you are trying to, as I said, trying to discover the truth about that product. Yes, there is a business need and you're trying to solve the business need, but you're sort of on a mission as a writer to get the truth out of your SMEs, your subject matter experts so that you can solve the problem and help somebody out there.

Teresa Nguyen: 14:46

Yeah, okay. I'm gonna write something down that he just said. I'll get to it when we get to the UX part. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's really good. technical writers do even more than that. You know, you document the truth, but you take it a step further and you Take the time to understand the users and then to create a bridge between those things and to uncover the value then beyond

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 15:06

that, beyond that, absolutely, yeah, I think we need to have more such discussions. That's the objective of our conversation is to kind of discover these hidden messages that are kind of tucked in deep within our fields, and to bring them to the surface. Love that. Yeah, I totally, man, I'm discovering my own field have been in it for so. Oh, all right. So you did technical writing, I want you to share what you did as a technical writer, because I know, it was a very brief journey into technical communications before you went on to become a UX researcher.

Teresa Nguyen: 15:48

Yeah. So I don't know if this is unconventional, I think I feel like maybe it is. But when I think about and what I have thought about switching careers, because that's something that is so common nowadays. So you know, more and more people are switching careers multiple times in their life. Absolutely. Yeah. So my, my philosophy around career and career switching, especially with career switching was, so the more established that I get, you know, in UX UX research right now, I get a lot of, you know, people who are in the process of transitioning, and the most common question I get is, and I actually got this very recently is, you know, what's your recommendation on what classes I should take? Should I go to school for this? Should I go to a, like an expensive boot camp? Like, is this worth the investment? I try to reframe the decision making process around like, suitable field? Because yes, I mean, maybe you want to pursue more education. But there's other ways to do it. If you don't have the resources, you know, I didn't have the resources to take an expensive university course around tech writing, um, you know, this story we, yes, I'm talking about it. But you know, there's very, you know, if you were naturally curious, I would say, if you work in any of these fields, any of the three, journalism, tech writing in UX, you're generally curious, and you're probably a pretty resourceful person. But if there's a lack of resources, they aggregate and be even more resourceful. So I think that that probably influenced a lot of my moves the way that I move through life and through my careers. It's not just the thing about the educational what you need to know. But it's also understanding like, what does it really like to build a career? And that involves networking. It involves understanding who the people, other people who are doing this, who they work with, and just kind of build that out in that. Yeah. So for context for the listeners, what this event was, it was Meetup group that I found. And if you just click Google technical writing in Dallas, I just moved here from Iowa, where I was going to school doing the journalism thing. So I was in a bigger city. This is a new career path. I was like, Okay, I have no idea where to start. Let's go to Google. And so yeah, I wanted to find who else was doing this. If there were any professional organizations around it, unfortunately, there was a Dallas chapter or North Texas chapter. So I didn't

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 18:02

know that. So you just googled up? And that's how you landed up at the event? Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. So that's important. What you're saying is networking reaching out? Yeah. Yeah, I know, you discovered this.

Teresa Nguyen: 18:13

Exactly. Yeah, at the time. meetup.com was pretty big. It's not that huge. I mean, maybe it is. But back then, you know, meetup.com was a way for me to find people, like friends, like similar hobbies. But also there's a lot of professional organizations on there. So I'm pretty sure that's how I found you. So maybe that and or Google some combination, too.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 18:33

But that's good to mention, right? Whatever, see, the technology and the platforms may change. But seeking out that community to network with whatever your curiosity is, at that point in time to act on it, you never know where that can take you. So

Teresa Nguyen: 18:48

I would have had no idea where that Yeah, yeah. And then the networking, you know, a lot of people associate that with, like, really, you know, ulterior motives, and kind of, like, what's the word I'm looking for? Like smarmy? Yeah, like, networking doesn't have to be like that. It's just, for me, it was just, it was just a way for me to learn more about this field that I was interested in. And it was just an educational opportunity to it's all mixed in together into that it's not just about hitting a business, it does have to be that transactional. You know, you're building relationships and you're sharing knowledge and you're sharing about yourself and you're learning about other people and how they got into it. And yeah, it just

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 19:28

goes back to what you said earlier, right? That your personal and professional blend. So when you network, you are looking for that personal connection as well. So networking, it doesn't have to be about quote unquote, schmooze. And I think schmoozing is not bad at all. If you have the gift of gab, go for it. But networking can be can be deep, too but you you have to put yourself out there you have to connect with people let's say that let you have to connect with people. If you want to discover and especially if if you're looking for resources, and you don't have deep pockets. Yeah, yeah to tap into, then this is your opportunity because people are there to teach you and to work with you and to mentor you. But you have to first reach out to build that bridge.

Teresa Nguyen: 20:14

Yeah, exactly. And it's so much of it is just being yourself bringing a really positive energy. And I think I'm generally just a positive energetic person.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 20:24

I would agree. I would agree. I would absolutely agree. So you attended that first event? And then what happened?

Teresa Nguyen: 20:32

Oh, God, and then so this particular event was, it was the president of STC national. That's probably why I felt like I needed to come dressed. Oh, I didn't think the president of this whole not just the president of like the Dallas chapter, but the president. Yeah. And I felt really lucky. I was like, wow, what great timing, you know, like the next live meeting that they have they happen to have this person. And her name is Kitts Brown, Hoekstra, I believe. Yes. Yes. She's wonderful. I had a chance to meet her at the summit, too. And yeah, it was great. So what came of that was, you know, I came with this really, you know, energetic vibe, and really curious, really thirsty for knowledge, and, you know, gross. And, yeah, I just kind of latched on and it actually like, the people who are already on the board, I guess, like that. And like, you know, thought I had something that to, like, help with this chapter to help it grow and, and receive, you know, a lot of mentorship in return for that. And that's, that's how that worked out. And then I learned more about the opportunities that STC as an organization offered through the membership. So that's how I got connected and ended up getting sent to Ohio to the national summit for free and networking there. And then, that might have been more I first heard about personas and met somebody who was who gave a talk about them. So that was really,

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 21:55

so was that what did that trigger your exploration about UX user experience? What Where did that start? You know, we've talked about you coming into technical communications and kind of discovering this community. But then something happened in that period, which kind of put you on the path to becoming a UX researcher. So what triggered that?

Teresa Nguyen: 22:17

Yeah, so I had been volunteering with the chapter in various different ways. And somewhere along the line, I took a technical communications 101 was a certificate. It was kind of pricey, like, it took me a little while to pay that off. But I was like, You know what, I really want to further my education. That's because there are a lot of like, really specific skills I want to get better at in that course really taught me how to write in a more succinct way and how to present information that is hierarchy of information and how to break things down and how to work with content. Exactly. I remember that the first assignment unit was to write a paragraph or something in most people's paragraphs got torn apart, because they were too wordy. They were too flowery. brevity is the name of the game. Oh, yeah. I got mine got torn up pretty bad. Oh, it I spoke about being a jerk. I was all you know, slick. I was gonna go in there. And you know, rocket in that? Yeah, no. So I mean, even that was reality checking. It's just really highlights, like you're saying the art of writing in that manner. And not just writing but also interpreting information and thinking about it. That is, that's something that robots aren't, I don't think ever going to be able to do as well as I hope not. Yeah, no, I don't think so. And then, yeah, and in the process of that, and it was I finished the class, and then I kept networking. And then I started to apply to jobs. So I had like, one, it was not, it was, I can't call it portfolio. It was an assignment. And I still remember it. And I still actually refer to it sometimes in conversation when I explain what tech writing is. Uh huh. But the example, okay, that's a tangent. So, I first class, and then I was looking for jobs. And then in the process of that, you know, I look at job descriptions, I look at different companies. I look at what the role of a tech writer is in these different companies. And then I don't get anywhere, you know, they all are asking for five years of experience. 10 years, I'm so sorry to hear that. Yeah, yeah. And even the entry level ones, it was just like, I just didn't feel like I had, like, you know, just nothing opened up. And then we had a speaker for the North Texas Lonestar sec chapter, as name is Brian Sullivan. And he was a prominent member, you know, a leader in for the uspa. The user experience professionals Association. It's an international organization that's been around for a long time. And this is the Dallas chapter of it. And so we had him come in as a speaker. And yeah, he talked about what UX is. And he talked about design thinking. And he talked about personas, all that style. And that was

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 24:59

your foray into user experience.

Teresa Nguyen: 25:02

Yeah, yep. And then I checked him out in his organization. And they had a meetup. And I went to one of their events. And a lot happened between that and getting my first job. But again, another like pretty non traditional way to get into an industry, I made a TV show. You know, I

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 25:20

want you to talk about that. Because the traditional path is either through upgrading your skills, or your educational qualifications. And you had a very unconventional path. And I know that you had your fair share of challenges. But please share with our audience, what that journey was, like, there's so much to learn from that experience, not just personally for me, but I think there is something that our listeners can take away. Because I think you were undaunted, you had this goal in mind. And I know you were, you know, you had set your eyes to get there. And you got there. And that's why I think your unconventional journey is that much more important. Please do share with us.

Teresa Nguyen: 26:03

Yes, I haven't actually talked about this one in a while. So just to kind of set the stage. I went to this UX meetup. And it just so happened that the topic of the meetup was, it was, it was like a fundraiser for this group of a couple of guys who wanted to make we're kind of already making a web series about the user experience professional in the field. So just a quick and dirty like overview, but it was it was like a, like a shark tank type of show, where you learn so this version of it, though, had startups come on and pitch their products and startups, you know, their most of them were like, what an awesome opportunity. Yeah, yeah. And they had a panel, each episode had a different panel of user experience experts, what they called them. So these people have been working in this field for a long time. And they understand how to break products down break user flows down and critique them in a, you know, yeah, like a shark tank style. So they're not investing their money in these startups. But they're offering them critique. And it was a really, it was a cool concept is very educational. And I got to learn about different startups and industries, it was a really interesting thing into that. So what I saw from that opportunity, was a chance to leverage skills that I already had, which were video production and camera work and working with scripts working with that, like audio visual equipment. Well, since I was I was doing some of that stuff for STC, like a little bit. But yeah, I mean, it's why would I want to go pay 1000s of dollars for a certificate, you know, when I could actually learn directly from experts who are working in the field, nothing against professors, I have the deepest respect for like academia, especially as a researcher now, but yeah, it was, it was great, I would be building my network with all of these professionals. And I knew that these were like, very experienced people. And a lot of them actually, you know, come from technical communication, in a lot of ways. Many of them did. So yeah. And that did end up turning into a whole tour. And I got to meet experts in all different cities between here on the west coast, we filmed in like nine or 10 different cities. And it was kind of a coming of coming of age, if you can even say that I was like in my 20s. But it was its own coming of age journey. And you know, because we were a startup ourselves. And we were very scrappy. And everything that you watch in like this show Silicon Valley was Yeah, some of what ended up happening with with that whole group, but it was such a cool experience. And I'll always be, you know, thankful for the opportunity that the timing worked out. So well, you know, that I got to meet those guys. And now all the people that I met through there, so many of them are still in my network to this day. And that was like, five, six years ago, I think now. Oh, yeah,

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 28:47

I know, it's been a while. But I think, from your story, what I want to kind of focus on is, it's not that the education will not take you far, it will definitely add value, no doubt about that. And like you said, if you can, if you have the resources, please do go seek out their education, you will definitely get value out of that. But if you don't have that opportunity, this is another way to plug into the community. And you would have not had that opportunity if you had not put yourself out there. And more importantly, leveraged on your skills because you brought something to the table. As much as you are trying to learn from this community of people. You had something so if you have something to give, think about it, what can you bring to the table and we all have something to bring to the table.

Teresa Nguyen: 29:38

So along the lines of storytelling, a skill that I honestly haven't actually used this particular method with my UX career yet but storyboarding. So when I worked in journalism, it wasn't just the news. I also made like documentaries. And that is absolutely like a little bit more of like a long form storytelling right? It's not just a daily or weekly, like news piece that just, you know, no one's ever going to watch again. But it's not a documentary. And, um, it gets really in depth with things, but the way that you approach that, from a story perspective, it can actually like the skill itself. And then that way of framing and thinking has helped in my, in my research, when I am past the point of having conducted the interviews and spoken to the users and analyze and synthesize the data, then I have to report those findings and tell people why the hell they should care about all that stuff that you just paid me to do. You know, because it has to matter. It has to matter in the way that decision makers who are human beings interpret that is through story. Yes, you can throw a slide full of numbers and bullet points at them. But what's the story? what's, what are they supposed to remember from all of this about, they supposed to know about their users in order to design a product that meets their needs and objectives?

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 30:55

So it looks like we are experienced as a journalist has definitely brought not just value, but significant value. It's transferred over really well into what you're doing currently. Yeah, yeah. I

Teresa Nguyen: 31:08

mean, interviewing people, the differences in journalism, you would i would interview people who didn't want to talk to me. Yeah.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 31:15

So now now people want to talk to you. Hmm. They do?

Teresa Nguyen: 31:19

Yeah. I mean, you're they're usually kind of they're getting paid? Ideally. Of course, of course. Yes. They expect me to, you know, be speaking with them. And I don't have to track them down and knock on their door.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 31:32

Oh, that must be such a relief. Right. That's nice.

Teresa Nguyen: 31:35

Yeah, it's nice. Printing users is a challenge sometimes. But I'm not having to like fight all the time for it.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 31:42

Yeah. See, sometimes, as technical writers, we kind of have to. And I say this with the utmost respect, we have to plead with our subject matter experts for content.

Teresa Nguyen: 31:52

Yeah, that was one of the things I wrote down. So there is I would say, a difference in like how much you actually work with a subject matter expert of a product in technical writing than you do in UX research and design. Obviously, UX needs to understand the product on a technical level and understand how it works, we definitely don't spend as much time on that, because we're not the ones documenting the nuts and bolts of it. So that's why technical writers technical communicators talk to the sneeze more when we interact the most is during like, like the kickoff of a new project. And we have what's called stakeholder interviews, and that may or may not involve a technical subject matter expert, but it involves all of the stakeholders of this particular product, or company, that means stakeholder basically, is just like, it could be somebody in the C suite, an executive, it could be head of marketing, it could be head of any number of departments, sales products, and design and research of the client side. So that really, to me, was the kind of hints at the reason that I another big reason I switched to UX, because I think you know what I'm getting at because, yeah, podcasts. But yeah, for technical writers, what one thing that I really picked up on, like a sentiment that I picked up on the challenge of not being able to affect the actual design of a product, it's more like you're documenting what's there, and you are in a position to you are extremely well informed, and in a fantastic position to point out the problems about it. But I didn't find that people that I spoke with, you know, when, when I would, you know, ask about what's challenging about their job. And it was one of them, it was just like, yeah, we just don't have a lot of influence in the actual like, yes,

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 33:44

thank you for First of all, bringing this up. And that was going to be one of my questions. So you naturally segue to the, you know, to that point of our conversation. So you think the stakeholders would benefit by including technical writers? 100%? I

Teresa Nguyen: 34:00

do. Yeah, I can actually remember I was and I know, you know, we want to do want to talk about how we collaborate with tech writers as a UX team. And I have only been on one project where the technical writer was really even mentioned. And when it when they were mentioned, it was like, should we include them in this next meeting or not? And I was like, Yes. Thank you, for champion for us. My people. Yes, I want to speak with the technical writer because what we were doing, we were looking at, it was a new product, and they had kind of like a beta version of it. And you know, there's there's like this Help section, right? Because there's always a Help section. Yes. Yes, the document help documentation. As a researcher, I wanted to know, like, what are people struggling with, you know, people are using this help, who's writing it? I want to know who's writing because that's probably the person who's going to know what people are, are asking about the most and maybe this person has access to the user. Maybe they have a persona already. You know, I'm a researcher, but like, not gonna walk in here and expect to like be the expert about them, and be One to make the UX person I'm like, No, I know already from my past experience with STC.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 35:06

So was it helpful? Did you eventually get access to that technical writer?

Teresa Nguyen: 35:09

I did. Yes. She came into the next meeting. And yeah, I did learn some things. But I, like that project kind of dropped off, or like I didn't really actually get to work with them. So

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 35:21

yeah, I mean, whatever that brief encounter was like, You think you definitely see a value in that partnership there?

Teresa Nguyen: 35:29

Yes, yes, they were valuable conversations to that, that came out of that, because of the people who are in the room, and the other stakeholders. So we had like the product manager, we had a business analyst, we had the UX team. And then we had a tech writer who was able to speak to those things, and never would have had that chance to, if no one had really, you know, raised their hand and said, hey, yeah, let's bring in the tech writers. Yeah, yeah. Already information and knowledge about your users and in your market that you already have, why wouldn't you use this person? So the more we can bring the different players of the team together,

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 36:03

there's definitely more power to that, because we will all work towards that same objective. And we'll be in sync at that point. And probably you might get your documentation or dl earlier, because, you know, the writers are part of the design and the review process.

Teresa Nguyen: 36:19

No kidding. Yeah, it was a very powerful collaboration. One of the things that I loved a lot when I started to hear it in the UX industry was the, the rejection of lorem ipsum. In your prototypes, hmm. So you don't want lorem ipsum? Because you know, Lorem, ipsum. If you know, in case anyone doesn't know, it's just filler. It's filler words. It's just like, Oh, I have, you know, this wireframe. And I know that there's some written content that like, needs to go here, you know, you know, I don't care about finding out what that is. So I'm just going to fill in some gibberish in there. And just just for now, you know, and then we'll kind of just design and build this

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 36:55

deep truth. Yeah, because, again, we are getting into the philosophical discussion, which is important. What you're trying to say is not trivialize that content. Yeah, this

Teresa Nguyen: 37:06

isn't even philosophical. This is extremely practical. Why is that? You know that when you're designing a prototype, there are decisions like around interactions, and around the visual design? Is something like a website say that you need to understand like, how big how much space Do we need here for the content? And if you don't know what the content is, is it going to be three sentences? Or is it going to be three paragraphs that's going to have all of this of your wireframe and your prototype and content strategy? I mean, when you go back to the word experience in user experience, content, and words are a huge part of the experience?

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 37:41

Is there any advice that you would like to give to our listeners? Yeah,

Teresa Nguyen: 37:46

going from technical writing to UX research. So if you look at like a subject matter expert interview, or even a user interview, like a persona interview, you're already doing UX research there, where it extends into its own field is where you pick up different methodologies to answer different questions to answer deeper questions about not just the product, but also about the market, and about the users and how all of that connects into the business goals. And how that actually directly informs the design from the get go. Whether it's a new iteration of a particular flow, or whether it's a completely new project, or product, excuse me, that's where research comes in. And we have, you know, researchers work with qualitative data, and they work with quantitative data. Usually, there's more of a specialization between one of the two, for a given researcher kind of depending on what your background is, but we do try to use mixed methods. So a mix of qualitative and quantitative, because quantitative is good, it's, it's more challenging, it's much more technical to work with. I'm personally I'm stronger with qualitative, qualitative also, some time, it takes a lot more time because that's where you get into going into the field and observing your users and spending a long time like a lot of roots in these methodologies. You know, they come from academic research, they come from ethnography. Okay, so yeah,

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 39:09

that begs the question, Teresa, for somebody like me, who has a fear of math and numbers. When you said quantitative, unlike Okay, Paul has that. for somebody like me? Who's got that fear of numbers? Is it easy to overcome? Not that fear, but other? Can you make it in this field as a UX researcher? Yeah,

Teresa Nguyen: 39:32

I certainly am. Yeah, okay. Fortunately, I do work. Project two, a two is great about giving you resources to learn about how to do either qualitative or quantitative, whichever one that you would want to grow in. Quantitative is really important because when you make when companies make business decisions, they're not going to want to make them off of like, a sample size of eight users in one study, right? have to find a way to scale your research and to do maybe unmoderated study. Use that you can scale to hundreds of people 1000s of people through a survey or some other like, you know, there are a lot of unmoderated methods to use. Okay, prototyping and doing usability testing. So that that is a way to get more numbers. And then there's also like market research. This is where a lot of collaboration can happen between like, marketing and data scientists.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 40:25

Okay, so you so, so what you're also trying to say is that there are people out there, so you it's not all on you. Correct? Yes, it is not all on you, nor should it be. Okay,

Teresa Nguyen: 40:35

that'd be so but but yeah, I think the important thing is, if you are, you know, intimidated by Statistics, and numbers and all that they relate visualization, which is not a bad thing, by the way, it's perfectly natural. It's really, I find that like, I'm not scared of it. I've actually, I want to lean into it more when I think of it in terms of what does it mean, to get to the truth? Hmm, I need numbers to get to the truth. So how do I get those numbers? Let's do it. Okay, what do I have to learn? You know, yeah,

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 41:10

I like the word lean in. And when you say lean in, it also has the connotation of a support that you have around you, that you can lead into. Sure.

Teresa Nguyen: 41:22

Sure, I mean, yeah, I mean, if, if you are expected to deliver the numbers, but you are not given the resources in the space, and the time or the time, did you that, that is an extremely stressful thing. And that is something that happens a lot in UX in general, but for researchers, because, you know, it's it's so easy for the scope of our studies to get blown out of proportion, and for people to expect things that we we do not scope, the time. And the resources to do this is a lot of people don't understand how much time it does take to do good, you know, qualitative research, especially. It's a lot. It's something I'm still learning to do, more efficiently, more professionally, all of that. Yeah, it's something I am excited to grow. And I would say, this applies to anyone getting into a new like, either technical writing, or UX, or even if you're a pretty experienced, I think, even you know, mid to experienced level professionals who are in the business of finding the truth and telling the truth and advocating for solutions. It's to stay grounded in your intuition. That is based on the evidence that you found in your interviews, in your experience with a product, stay grounded in that and find your confidence in that.

Unknown: 42:34

It's well said. Yeah, well said. But trust yourself, and trust yourself.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna: 42:40

Yes. And on that note, Teresa, thank you so much. This was a great conversation. And thank you for taking the time and for sharing your your wonderful journey with us. Thanks for having me on Zohra. I hope your listeners enjoyed this and have more questions to ask. I'm sure they will. I have. Thank you, Teresa. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please share on your social media. To help me reach a wider audience. subscribe to the podcast on your favorite app, including Apple, Google or Spotify. Follow us on Twitter at insight tech comm or visit us at w w w dot insight tech comm dot show. For the latest updates. Catch you on another episode.