SPEAKER_00 0:08

Hello listeners. If you are curious about technical communications, then this podcast is for you. On each episode, I will interview a guest who will share the unique journey. This is Insight Techcom with Zahra Matabana. Let's get started. Hello, listeners. You are on the Insight Techcom show, and I'm your host, Zahra Matabana. I'm honored to welcome today's guest, Agnes Krenzel. Hi, Agnes. Hi, Zora. It's so awesome to see you. How are you doing this Sunday morning?

SPEAKER_01 0:44

I am doing great, and I want to say thank you very much for having me this morning.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Absolutely. It's my pleasure. So, Agnes, let's get started. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey into technical communications.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

That's a very good question, Zora. I am have always been a communicator at heart, and I think um with a big room of empathy, a big ball of empathy. My journey to tech home started when I worked in technical support for many years, helping customers to solve problems. And then I was talking to a lady, she was in the same job as me, and she said, You know what? You will make a very good technical writer. I was like, What is a technical? What is a technical writer? What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Wow. So if I may interrupt you, you didn't even know what technical writing was. No, I didn't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

And she said, I am pursuing that right now, actually. So here is some information. You know, look into it and see if you'll be interested. And I did. And, you know, that's how basically I got into the field. I took a course and technical writing and I just fell in love with it. I think it was uh for me, it was more like a a way to teach people before they even got the problem. You know, so I thought maybe I could intercept all these problems that are coming into the service desk if I wrote good documentation to help people solve the problem. So that's how I got into technical communications and I loved it.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

What caught my attention was the fact that you went and did a course. What kind of course did you do?

SPEAKER_01 2:25

It was actually a class because I already had my undergrad at a time. So I was like, oh, didn't want but to go back and go through the whole degree program. So I went to a local university. It was called Amber at the time. And there was a class in technical communication. I think the book that we use, I still have the book actually. That was how good it was. I kept that book. It's called Technical Communication, Situations and Strategies. It was by Mike Markell. Really good book, and the teacher was excellent. So I took that course and just took things from there.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

That's great. That's fantastic because I was going to ask you if you have any resources to share. Because I think for most technical writers, our journey is accidental into technical communications.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Yes, that is so true. I have worked with um others on my team who came from various backgrounds, psychology, accounting, I mean English. English is kind of close to technical writing, but still is different. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Yeah. So yeah. It's not a typical, there's a tip, it's not a predefined set path into technical communications. And that is what makes me so passionate about this field, is that we have people entering this field, this industry, from such interesting backgrounds.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

That's absolutely right. And it makes it so much the more reacher, right? Because it makes us so much fluence and so much richer. And there's never a dull moment.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

There's never a dull moment. For anybody that thinks of technical writing from outside, in my opinion, when I try to introduce or when I ask people what do you think about technical writing, they say, Oh, you're the guys who write manuals. Yeah, that's all we think about. Yeah, the manuals. The manuals. And what you're trying to show is your path into technical communications came from such a defining moment, if you will, when somebody told you you should seek this out. And that's exactly what happened to me. It literally mirrors my experience. Yes, it mirrors my experience. So I'm I'm really happy to hear that there are more out there with a similar background like mine. There's actually more to come. There is more to come. Absolutely. I think we'll find more such parallels between us. So the next question that I was going to ask you was how did you launch into your career? And I think you did answer that to me.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Yes, that's how I launched into my career. But I got my first job just, you know, back when we had newspaper ads and we used to go through the newspaper and look for opportunities. The good old days. That's when I've got my first job at a local company. It was a small company, pretty much a startup, wonderful people. And no, it was just perfect because I learned the various tools with you know, FrameMaker and the other Adobe products on that job. I learned a lot about engaging with subject matter experts on that job, the different personalities that you encounter on that job, ways to persuade so you get the information you need on that job. So it was just really, really good.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

I have lots and lots of questions from that little summarization of your first experience. So my first question to you is going to be when you applied and you got the interview call, did you have, excuse me, did you have a portfolio ready? Can you speak a little bit about that, getting that first break, that foot in the door?

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Yes, absolutely. I remember vividly when I had the interview, actually, the manager was looking for somebody with a balanced skill of technical as well as writing. And just, you know, somebody who was able to like was a go-getter, able to kind of go out there and talk to him, not be hesitant. And my background, like I said, was technical, a little bit more technical because I was working on the service desk and I had um some skills in Unix. And so that was um something that the manager was looking for because we were writing based on the platform that was using that um software. And so it gave me some leverage to get into the job, but it was basically the whole writing, of course, was the primary reason, but having that technical knowledge also helped me to get through the door.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

So uh recently I was actually on a team of uh mentors, and one of the questions that came up, it was a panel of mentors, and one of the mentors recommended knowing your niche. And it appears from what you're sharing with me is that you had already identified um technical communications can be for any industry. It could be healthcare, it could be finance, it could be technology, but you had identified that it is going to be technology based on what you shared with me. That was what my life was trending.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

It was my life experience. It was always in technology. So I was drawn to technical companies because that was the brunt of my experience. And so it just naturally flowed into that. So you make a good point. No, somebody can be like in banking all their life and become a technical communicator in a bank. Right. Because they have fluency in the terminology, in the process, in the cadence. So, and then so all that stuff is like taken care of. So now they just have to focus on the content.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

That's a very good point that you make because I also have a background in technology. And again, you know, as we try to draw parallels between our careers, yeah. It seems that if you know what niche you want to belong to, rather which industry, then you are in a way already a subject matter expert. Exactly. Bonus points for you, yes. Bonus points for you, exactly. So you you come into this field as a writer better informed.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

Better informed. And not only that, but you're able to contribute immediately.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Absolutely. That's a very big, that's a very big brownie point for you. Yes, yes. And as technical writers, we have to go seek out information. So if you can already speak the lingo of the field, then you're taken more seriously, I suppose.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Exactly. You have you have, you know, they say language is access. And if I'm able to come to you and talk to you in that language where you understand the business and we are on the same page, yeah, you engage immediately because you go like, yeah, she knows what she's talking about, or he knows what he's talking about. And so let's have this conversation that you need. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

That's awesome. And I really like your slogan, language is access. I'm gonna get my t-shirt printed with that. I love it. I love it. And we'll split the royalty. I love it. All right, moving on. What skills did you acquire to grow in the field once you had already launched your career? Do you want to share something about that?

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Yeah, I learned a lot in the beginning. The group that I joined, like I said, it was a smaller company, almost like a startup. So our group grew later on to like 22 individuals, which we had two editors, and then the rest of us were writers on the on the team.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

But I'm curious, so were you the lone writer that started?

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Because what you're sharing? I was not. We already had some writers on the team when I got there, but it was like we were we were in the building phase of the department. And so at some point, we had to create processes to command our daily work. So this was something that I learned from my manager at the time. She had a, I think it was John John Hawkes' book. This one, um document, I think it's documenting your documentation projects or something like that. Yeah. Um excuse me if I'm not saying the title right, but it was written by John Hawkes. So she used that book to create a framework that the entire team could use in terms of you know research, analysis, documentation, review, and final publication. So that was kind of how we built our cadence so that 22 people could know what was going on and could know what to expect at what time. So I learned that processes and frameworks were powerful if you couldn't implement it right.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Very true. I mean, a process can enable you, it can be empowering. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

So that was really good. And then of course, the just the tools, just learning the tools itself. We know frame makeup was a big thing. When I first started, we were using the desktop Mac, then we had to move over to PC because the entire company at the time back then was moving to PC. So we had to give up our Mac and touches.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

So was that something that you regretted?

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Actually, no, I was I was pretty flexible. You know, it's like it was it was okay, but it's just like a frame maker on the Mac is a little different from in terms of the command keys and all from you know, compared to the PC, but we were able to do that and successfully and moved over to the to the PC. So, but learning uh frame maker itself and just learning that the templates, building templates, and you know, applying the different tags and stuff to your content, that was also a cool thing to learn.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

You know, Agnes, with everything that you're sharing right now with me, the words that stood out for me are adaptable, flexible, continuous learning.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

You need to be that if you want to be a technical communicator, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Perfect. I couldn't agree more than that. I mean, I absolutely couldn't agree more. It is very true. In any field, that is a given. Yes. But as a technical writer, you have to be above average in that area, yeah. Above average, right. And that's a skill that is not, I would say, probably talked about. It's a soft skill that's not talked about, but that's a big, I think, a special skill set that we bring to the profession, to the industry.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Not only you say that, another aspect of that too is like technical communicators sit at the intersection of everybody's projects. So at certain point, the technical communicator knows more about what's happening in every branch of the project than the different product owners. Absolutely. No, because you're like the glue and you tie things together and you make the story out of it and you connect it for it to make sense to everybody else. And so you were able to articulate that in a way that nobody else can because they're looking at the asylos and you're looking at the whole picture.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Beautifully said, Agnes. Complete, I mean, I love the metaphor of the glue. Yeah. Because that is true. You are working, you are intersecting to kind of bring together what you just shared with me. I work with engineering, and within engineering, you're working with engineers and then you're working with QA. And in my personal experience, I have been at that intersection and even user experience now. Would you say your experience was similar to what I just shared? Oh, absolutely, yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Absolutely. Um, in fact, we I, as a manager, I was responsible for ensuring that at one point that our documentation were being validated by QA. So I had to work with the QA manager to create a process where we could do that and track it and monitor that each feature that we documented were being tested accordingly. So yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

That's a that's a value add, right? Because so technical writing is a very collaborative profession, if you think about it. Yes, you have to be. You have to be. There's no other way. There's no other way, exactly. I mean, when you think about technical communicators, the general perception is that we are introverts. But interestingly, we are in a profession that requires us to seek out information, go talk to people. So it's it's kind of a paradox. It's an interesting paradox.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

It is a very interesting paradox that you say, based because we turn to be more in the eternal organization like engineering and IT versus the business side where it's marketing. Our content writing tends to be more on those, on those ends. So in your mind as a technical communicator, you're like, oh, I'm just going to just hunker down, just do my work, right? I don't have to worry about this. But then a certain point in your career, you will be called upon for certain things. So it's best to be flexible in a sense of, yeah, I'm an introvert, but I have to learn how to be an extrovert when I have to. So I know there's some kind of a training about that, but it is a real life situation because many times I was pulled into meeting as a manager and I had to interface with you know CEOs and CFOs and executives, right? But look at me, I'm just a technical communicator, right? That's what you say. But no, you have to be ready to go. So yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Absolutely. You have to be ready to go, and you have to also prepare yourself to be called upon.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Yes, because um that's that's a very interesting thing. Because think about it, in our jobs, details are so important, and we hunker down and we get into the details. I'm talking about crossing your T's and dotting your I's. This is our life, right? This is how we do business. But when you're talking to a VP, you don't have to be in that detail. So, how are you going to pivot and talk high level, but get your point across immediately? So that that audience, that target audience, you know, the executive audience that you're talking to get your point right away. So these are some of the things that, you know, challenges, if you will, if you're evolving in your career, you know, into leadership that you have to kind of consider.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

So this actually is a good segue for me to ask more. Uh, you know, we've talked about you being a technical writer, and then you you kind of touched upon your role as a documentation manager. And this is a good segue for me to ask you that question. What options exist for someone who wants to get on the management track? And from your experience, what can you share with us in terms of preparing to get to that business side of the profession?

SPEAKER_01 17:12

I think, you know, like every profession and everything you do, your work will give you access to a lot of things in addition to your network. So when you are in a field of your choice, like technical communication or any other field, you need to build a network. So you need to consider who you're going to identify as a mentor. It doesn't have to be on your team, it can be on another team, another group, because you have to extend yourself. And then you can also identify people who might help, who might help as sponsors. Your sponsors are the ones who are high up in the organization. So they are the ones who are in a part of the executive team. And then your mentor can be another manager or somebody else, you know, in another group. But your sponsors are the ones who are able to, when they're sitting in those meetings talking about promotions or moving people around or whatever, that's your representative. That's the person who will say, hey, if you're trying to consider someone for this, then why about this person? And of course, your your mentor would be your accountability partner who will kind of make sure that you're growing the way that you should grow. So I'm going to leadership in the technical communications field. I've I, from my personal experience, just feel like is uh a matter of you, okay. We talk about hard work, but we also talk about building your network and being consistent in your behavior and attitude. So those things are important when it comes to consideration.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Thank you for sharing that. Now, I know what a mentor is because in many ways, Agnes, I look up to you for mentoring me. Since you have been, yeah, absolutely. Thank you. But I'm curious to know more about the sponsor because I haven't thought about that role that could contribute to my career. So can you speak a little bit more about that?

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Yeah, a lot of people haven't thought about it, but it's just another way because you cannot be everywhere and you don't know things that are happening. So, but in every company, the executives do meet. They do meet with HR all the time and they do talk about, you know, business things and how to do succession planning and to grow the business. So if you have uh somebody who is at that level who you've sought out to kind of say, you know, can you be my sponsor? And they understand the language, right? So can you be my sponsor? So that because I want to, for example, get my master's in techcom, and I want to be in leadership like you are someday, but I'm looking for opportunities to to navigate our current culture to get to this state, you know, in my job. And yeah, they will consider it, they will accept it, they will tell you the things that you need to do, and they will they'll be they will represent you. And the thing for you to do is to keep your side of the bargain and do the things that you're supposed to do. And so when those conversations come up that they're looking for successors and different things in different departments, that person will be there and go like, yeah, I can vouch for Zora because I've worked closely with her. I know her skill set, I know she's committed to the business, blah, blah, blah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

So in a wrap, if I had to summarize what you just shared, it would be somebody who advocates for you. Somebody who advocates for you, yes. Probably somebody who is from the management.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Yeah, somebody who's advocating for you from a higher level. It's this is like a VP and above, because these are the people who make the decision, right? Right. So it's it's a higher level. And sometimes, you know, like I've told people before, sometimes you can have more than you can have more than one sponsor because maybe it's somebody who you chose as your sponsor, you know, life life calls and things happen, they might have to move on to another company or something, and they're no longer with your company. So you just kind of, you know, have always have like a backup or another option. So you can have more than one in the company, but you have to be committed and you have to engage with them. And this is where you have business conversation, you know, like what's going on in the business, what's the market like, you know, those kind of conversations that are higher level than our day-to-day.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

I'm taking notes here because I honestly do engage with the VP and above, but I haven't engaged in a business conversation with them. Yeah, because that's the world.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

You talk about languages access. So you need to do your homework. You need to know what they're working on. Some companies will have like the business objectives for the year, which would be a good Starting conversation, you know, like how does this tie into, first of all, you look at look at how it ties into your goals, your department goals. And then you kind of drive it from there. But if you go to your VP and you're you're saying something to her or to him, it has to be relative to their world.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

I love it. I love it. This is because this is something personally that is missing in my life. So this resonates with me. This is great advice for somebody who's been in, I've been in this profession for a long time, but I haven't thought the next question to you was how do I build my brand? How do I market myself? And what you shared kind of translates to that. Yes, it definitely helps you.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

And then, you know, somebody told me, I don't remember somebody told me if I read it somewhere. It's like, when people see you, the first thing to think about that is your brand. So I don't know what that means, but if you think about it, you know, like when you see me, the first thing that comes to your mind, that's my brand.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Well, apart from being, I guess, presentable, I think you need to, you know, everything that you talked about, right? Because people form an opinion about you when they see you. But then once you open your mouth and share, that opinion, that perception can change, and that is in your control.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Yes, it's in your control. And you always remember, I know you're gonna do the t-shirt, so I also want a size when you do it. Language is access. So when you're going to talk to them, it's like, okay, I gotta get myself ready because I want to be in their world. It's about how they're doing, what's happened with the business, what's happening in the market, the company's stock price or shares, whatever. You know, it's just kind of having those conversations. So you're elevating yourself in a way so that they can see, like, you know, she really wants to learn, she's really committed to the business and stuff like that. But outside of that, your contributions to your department is also very important.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

So, you know, again, to kind of to neatly wrap up what you just shared, your contributions start as a technical writer, as a technical communicator within your department. So you're starting to build your credibility because that is your foundation. And as you start having access to the directors and above, your work should already speak for you. You shouldn't be trying to blow your horn about it. Your work should naturally, organically speak about the quality. And then what you're bringing is the business knowledge. That is where you have to step outside of your comfort zone, go get that knowledge. And it doesn't have to be too complex, but you need to understand enough. No, it doesn't have to be.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Yeah, you have to understand enough. And you know, it doesn't even if sometimes it can start with, like, for example, if say you need a solution in your department that you think will help the business, it can start from there, right? So, so say we need online help because everybody is, you know, this is going to be the best way for us to get all this content out, to make sure that we can automate some stuff, we can use snippets, we can get you know things going, set up a good structure. This is a conversation. And if you're having a problem with getting the funds to purchase, it's something that you can make a case for and speak to it with passion because you you do know what you're talking about. So you have to get all the facts, build up your story, and present it. And of course, show the benefits. Is it going to save the company money in the long run? That's the kind of talk that you know will kind of bring you up there because you're trying to save money, right? Right. And I think you have to show the business value for your proposition. That's it. What it's cost savings, it's time, it's you know resources, whatever those things are, you need to kind of highlight that. That gives you leverage.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Actually, you know, there is something that I'm trying to get done. And what I'm taking away from this conversation is that I mean, you hear this all the time. You have to show what value can you bring to the other person. It's not about how can you contribute to my value, to, you know, how can you bring value to my life, but how can I bring value to your life? But in doing that, you're automatically elevating your um, I say, I would say, your value, your contribution. That is definitely something I think we need to think about and uh keep front and center. It's like you're trying to solve business problems.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

Yes, at the end of the day, that's what we are trying to do. That's what it is. And we have to talk in those terms, but we don't learn that because of our focus and the way that we come in, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:50

I think you're right. And that's something that I feel as I, you know, continue with my journey in technical communications, understanding the business value of what my profession is and what how it can contribute to, you know, we are considered to be a cost center, not a profit center. And we need to change that dynamic. Yes, absolutely. And with everything that you have shared, I think there is an opportunity there to identify what business value are you bringing. I think we are entrenched, thinking hard, but there is an opportunity here to think hard about it.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

But unfortunately, sometimes because we are tied to the ones who really are revenue generating, then we become a cost center because we're tied to the engineering group or the IT group. And so we become a cost center.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

I mean, at the end of the day, that is true that we are part of a cost center, but then there may be very specific areas that could be profit making. For example, we are in a way, if you so I think the interesting thing for me from this conversation is that I have to think out of the box as a technical communicator and see how outside of engineering, what value am I bringing to other business departments?

SPEAKER_01 28:11

And that is a whole discussion because that is why there's a lot of conversation about enterprise content. How can we extend this to the enterprise versus just being in one place? So when I say enterprise content, you're talking about the content management systems that will allow all the content people in the organization to share resources. That's a big discussion. Content is not, like you say, a cost is actually a revenue if you do it that way. Yeah, if you do it that way.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Absolutely. I mean, think about it. When you have, you know, even within engineering, when you have, if you're looking at it over the long term, your documentation is your you're sort of tracking the evolution of your product. So if you have a customer that comes to you and says, I have X version installed, that is, that may not be supported, but as a favor, you want to, because this may be an important client, where do you go to? You tap into documentation. And then when you're thinking from a from a business perspective, I'm thinking we tend to complement what support does. If your documentation is good, then your support calls reduce. Exactly. There is an opportunity for us to think how we can become a contributor to the business side as well.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

To go back to the enterprise content management, because that's the only way, because you realize, and I think we mentioned this in one of our panel discussion, that the business side is where things rapidly change in terms of content tools. And then it's reversed, and then it comes into the publication side where we try to embed some things into online help to support those environments. So something like, for example, publishing different formats or whatever, that stuff happened in the web, right? Where you can publish that and then came back here, or chat boxes that happen, you know, on the web. And then now we're trying to kind of figure out how we can put in online help or in the help environment to allow for people to do support calls or whatever. So the business side, things happen faster because it's facing the customer, it's right in your face, right? And we we need to change it, we need to get it done. Whereas behind the scenes, we are still struggling to figure out. I mean, I don't know who's doing pure agile right now, because it's always a mix. You know, people have tried in the past and we keep it up for a little bit, but you just can't keep up with it because the demands are so they come in so fast. And yes, and then you have to, you know, things have to go through testing to make sure that it's quality and it has to on the, I mean, building from the UX and all that. So it's just too much, too quick. So things on the business side, which is kind of dealing with the web interface and you're looking at analytics, you know, with Google and all that stuff, that happens faster because it's it's built that way.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

So are you suggesting that since things are adapting or evolving so quickly on the business side, technical communications needs to keep its eye on it and try to catch up sooner?

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Yeah, I mean, we do, but then also it's like if we are able to win or to have the conversation with organizations where we can we can implement this enterprise content strategy for all content people, then I think we win. We really win because then content will have governance, we'll have, you know, we'll we have all these things around content that will show that it is profit making.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

So again, I'm trying to, what you're sharing is a nugget, and I'm trying to simplify it to understand as we try to try and fit ourselves into the bigger picture and plug ourselves into the the business side of things, we need to become proactive, not be reactive.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Let's just bring this down to our publication level. So, say in tech pubs, we write documentation because we're close to our engineering counterparts. We do all the research, you know, we use all of the resources, we write documentation, it's approved and everything. And then our counterparts in training development can take this information. If we're all using the same tool, whatever tool we decide that we're going to use, and create their training objectives in their training program, then our counterpart in marketing can use some of the information to do their marketing deliverables by conditional text or whatever we do, publish it the way that saves the company money.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

That helps. So creating content that is reusable across that is collaborative definitely elevates our value. Got it. That definitely breaks it down for me. Agnes, this has been such a great conversation so far. I would love to continue, you know, this conversation, but in the interest of time, one last question. Is there anything else that you would like to add to somebody that is entering the field?

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Yeah, I would like to say to anybody coming to technical communications, you are coming in with some knowledge, whether you're a new graduate or somebody who's just transitioning to tech community from another field, you have knowledge. And it's up to you to hone that knowledge, you know, and then to add to it or to embrace what you're being given in your work as a technical communicator. Some of the things that we talked about early in terms of soft skills, just being adaptable, flexible, being a continuous learner that will help you win, go to go a long way to help you win in what you're trying to do. And then also extending your knowledge beyond your department and embracing others in the company to learn what they're doing, especially counterparts of engineering or or IT, understand their language because you're there to support them really and to make what they're doing um more meaningful to their customers. So yeah, and then never stop learning, you know, always do research. I'm I'm always I was always sneaked into the things that the marketers were doing, and now I'm finding myself in marketing because I've I just find it so fascinating, right? They're writing all these things, and I was like, oh, what is this? What is that? Curiosity, yes, yes, always be curious, always be curious. Yeah, thank you. You're so welcome.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

You have shared some resources, and if you have other resources, please feel free to yes, definitely, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

I personally I am big into personal development, so I feel like everybody can give themselves that gift of personal development, be so much better for it. So I have really studied or read a lot of books about things like crucial conversations. So, how would you have a conversation with somebody that is meaningful and not like being assumptive or creating stories in your mind? The book Crucial Conversations really helped me to understand how to be factual in my conversation with other people. Because as a manager, I had to learn that because sometimes you have to have those conversations with your colleagues, and it can be nerve-wracking for both you and them. Okay. And the way to lessen that is to stay factual. So you just look at behavior patterns, you look at uh times, and then you go into the conversation with those facts so that the other person can see, like, oh yeah, I did do this this many times or whatever. So it's not like picking on me. And then also on books about like emotional intelligence, we all have that, but to what degree? We all have deficiencies, right? So if you say maybe you are very on you're not empathetic, maybe it's not like you're not empathetic, maybe on the scale of zero to a hundred, maybe you're like 20. So how can you move that to a 50 so that you can improve? So everybody has an area to improve. So emotional intelligence is very important, especially when you're dealing with people. So all this stuff was like all managerial stuff, right? No, this is very important. Leadership stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

Yes, and leaderships, right? And we may want to be servant leaders or we may be, we may want to be thought leaders, yeah. Uh not just people leaders, right? Yes, managing people. Exactly. And all these skills are relevant to no matter what type of leader you want to become. Exactly, exactly. So these are very this is invaluable advice, Agnes. And I really appreciate you sharing that information with our listeners. You're so welcome, Zora. So welcome. This is it for today. Thank you, Zora. It was nice talking to you. It was my pleasure, Agnes. I want to thank you for sharing your experience and your knowledge with us and for taking this time. Until next time, this is your host, Zora Madabana, signing off. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please share on your social media to help me reach a wider audience. Subscribe to the podcast on your favorite app, including Apple, Google, or Spotify. Follow us on Twitter at InsideTechcom or visit us at www.inside techcom.show for the latest updates. Catch you on another episode.