Inside Tech Comm with Zohra Mutabanna

S3E9 Smart Strategies for Saving Costs with Machine Translation and Going Global with Lisa Zarfl

August 18, 2022 Zohra Mutabanna Season 3 Episode 9
Inside Tech Comm with Zohra Mutabanna
S3E9 Smart Strategies for Saving Costs with Machine Translation and Going Global with Lisa Zarfl
Show Notes Transcript

Lisa Zarfl comes from the beautiful city of Graz, Austria. I met Lisa at a conference, and her presentation on machine translations inspired me to bring her on the show. 

In this latest episode, we talk about all things translation. More specifically, machine translation (MT) and how it can help a business reach a global audience while saving costs. We talk about how technical writers can help the company save costs upfront with the translation before they are deep into the process.  Tune in right away as Lisa has all the nuggets for you.

Some questions we do a deep dive into:

  • What is machine translation (MT)?
  • What does the process for MT look like?
  • Is MT based on artificial intelligence?
  • Will MT replace the need for human translators? If not, why?
  • How does an LSP (Language Service Provider) discern which type of content is best suited for MT?
  • What is the difference between internalization and localization?
  • What are the top 3 things that technical writers need to do before they consider translation for their content?

Guest Bio

In Lisa's own words..

My name is Lisa Zarfl. I’m a project manager and in-house translator at MadTranslations based in Graz/Austria. I have several years of experience in the translation industry, specifically in managing the translation of MadCap Flare projects. My job allows me to follow my passion by combining the technological aspects of documentation with the demands of multilingual environments.

You can connect with Lisa on LinkedIn.

Audio Engineer - RJ Basilio



Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

Hello, listeners. Welcome to Inside Tech Comm with your host Zohra Mutabanna. In season three, we shift our focus to shed light on why Technical Communication is a core business asset. In this regard, we will speak with guests who are our stakeholders, such as product managers, marketing professionals, UX designers, QA and customer support, who engage with writers to create a seamless experience for the customer and meet business goals together. Let's get started. Hi, peeps. Welcome to another episode of Inside Tech Comm with your host Zohra Mutabanna. Our guest today is Lisa Zarfl. She is a project manager and an in-house translator at MadTranslations based in Graz, Austria. She has several years of experience in the translation industry, specifically in managing the translation of Madcap Flare projects. She follows her passion by combining the technological aspects of documentation with the demands of multilingual environments. Hey, Lisa, welcome to the show.

Lisa Zarfl:

Hi Zohra. Good to be your guest today.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

Awesome. And I'm honored to have you. You're my first guest from Austria. Thank you so much. Yes. And I'm excited. Excited to be talking to you.

Lisa Zarfl:

I'm excited too. Yeah, I'm looking forward to this today.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

Oh, me too. So thank you for being on my show. And by the way, guys, Lisa and I met at MadWorld 2022. Back in June of 2022, obviously, in Austin, and she had a presentation on translation. And as she was talking, I wasn't focused as much on what she was presenting, which I'm sorry to admit, because I'm like, I want to have her on my show. I promise. I did go back and check out her brand presentation and her material. And it was fantastic. And I'm just thrilled that she decided to be here because then I can pick on her brains and get to know more about how the magic happens. Because I do not work in the translation industry. So with that, Lisa, take it away. Tell us a little about yourself or as much as you want.

Lisa Zarfl:

Yeah, like Zohra has already said my name is Lisa Zarfl.. I'm in Graz right now. So in Austria Graz is the second biggest city of Austria next to Vienna. I'm a localization project manager and in-house translator at MadTanslations, and MadTranslations is, well it's affiliated to Madcap Software. So basically the company that's developing and distributing Madcap Flare, Madcap Lingo and so on. I have been with MadTranslations for the past couple of years. And before that, I did a degree, basically in translation here at the University of Graz, for German, English and French. So German is my mother tongue. And I'm also working with English and French. And yeah, we met at MadWorld, which was such a great experience here in Austin, I really enjoyed going there, it was my first time in the US. And yeah, I also gave a presentation on Machine Translation, which was really, really good to do.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

Absolutely. You know it was so awesome to run into somebody from Austria. And to see such a diverse panel of presenters at MadWorld. It was definitely a great experience, a great immersion on all the different things that are happening outside of traditional technical communication. And since I do not work in translation, it was good to see how machine language is being utilized in translation. And I think we're gonna sort of touch upon that, as well. Right, Lisa?

Lisa Zarfl:

Okay. Sure. Artificial intelligence in the form of machine translation is gaining more and more importance is machine language translation, the same as leveraging AI. I in the field of translation. There really have been huge advances in the past couple of years, especially, well, no, maybe I should start with a little bit of an explanation first, for those who are not as familiar with the machine mean, is it an another word for AI? Or is it using AI to do translation process. So what even is machine translation? Machine Translation is a process when a computer software translates text from one language to another without any machine language translation, human involvement. So that's what we call a raw MT output. And machine translation works by comparing large amounts of Well, in our world machine translation is based on AI. source and target language data. And then they are compared, matched against each other by a machine translation engine. And there are lots of machine translation engine providers on the market. The best known ones are probably Google Translate or Amazon, translate Microsoft Translator, something along these lines. And as I said, there really have been huge advances because 10 years ago, machine translation was only available for a couple of languages. But as of today, most of the world's bigger ones and also many middle sized and smaller ones are supported by machine translation engines, Something that also always comes up when talking about machine translation is post editing. So post editing describes the process by which human linguists, so what we call the post editor, in this case, reviews the machine translated output. So the MT output the raw, MT output, and makes corrections to it in order to improve the outcome. So in most cases, there will be some form of post editing, because raw MT output, even though there have been huge advances still can be pretty unreliable, especially when you are trying to use machine translation for any texts that your customers can see. Or even something like a safety instruction or a contract. So it's really important that real life human being is thoroughly checking these texts after the machine has pre translated.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

Oh, that's good to know. So I was at an interview recently, Lisa, I was asked if artificial intelligence AI replaced technical writers, in the context of this conversation. May I ask - will machine has machine translation replaced translators, since there has been such significant advances?

Lisa Zarfl:

No, it has not yet I don't think that it will replace human translators. I don't think that it will fully replace human translators, let's put it like that. I mean, with all the advances in the field, of course, there are being more and more text types that are fully translated by machine translation, like anything that's maybe I don't know, internal company letters or emails, basically, everything that's not customer facing can already be well translated with machine translation, and most of the time, you will get a pretty decent output. And the engines are definitely going to get better and better, maybe even to the point where there's not so much of human post editing needed. Anyway, I, or however, I still think that there will always be humans involved. Just because they are, I don't know, it will always need humans to really cater the texts to target audience. So also, for example, whenever there is some creative writing involved, for example, let's take marketing texts or something like that anything with pans with idioms, allusions, irony, something like that. The machine translation engine, as good as they are, they don't understand what they translate. They just can't read between the lines. Yeah, I think humans will remain the experts for that for quite a while. And also, there's so much around translation that can't easily be replaced by machine translation. I mean, when we're talking about the translation process, it's not only getting the text from one language to another, there's so much more trips, there's this whole localization management around it, when it comes to well, taking care of the translation memories and organizing terminology, just keeping everything in place, allocating the translations, managing everything. So the think humans will continue to play an important part.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

I love how you said, reading between the lines, that machine translation is not there. And that was one of my I did not, you know, argue about in such an articulate manner? I think you did it beautifully. It's sort of I think it aligns with what my theory is that it's going to be some ways off before that can happen. And I think the one of the things that I said was, it is emotion unaware, culture unaware.

Lisa Zarfl:

Culture is also a very important thing.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

Right?

Lisa Zarfl:

And contextualizing to culture,

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

Context all those things are so important. And for that to happen, is some ways of, and I'm talking in the next three to five years, we obviously don't have a crystal ball that looks into the next 10 years. And it is advancing pretty fast. But it's advancing

Lisa Zarfl:

Really fast. Really, it's exciting to see what we will experience in our lifetime.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

Yeah, and I think I mean, of course, this is not the scope of our discussion, but I am I'm interested to see where this technology will take us. And how we as humans can adapt because this is going to happen in every other field. It's not just within translation or technical writing. It's happening across all fields. It's getting faster and faster. It's getting faster and faster. So as humans, we have to stay ahead of the game. But I think since we jumped right into what is machine translation, which is fantastic. I want you to sort of take a step back and talk about how, what the process is at your company.

Lisa Zarfl:

Most of the time, it starts with the company. Are you wanting to expand their business or to go global? And that's when they first approached us because they need translations or other language services to do so. So basically, it is really it's often technical writers who are approaching us first. And it's while there are project managers like myself, who are guiding the technical communicator through the whole process. So for us, the first step is always to evaluate our potential new partner's needs. So we are definitely going to have a look at the source material. And we're also going to discuss the service levels with well, the technical writer in this case. So is translation maybe sufficient? Or do we rather recommend translation and revision? Or is the text suited for machine translation, we also always evaluate that something that's also important for us to figure out at first is if there are any additional needs. So for example, are there any images that need to be localized or screenshots or something like that? Is there going to be DTP work, or anything, basically, so we're just evaluating the needs and discussing everything with the technical writer in this case. And well, during this whole process, it's very important for us that our contact persons, so the technical writer just reaches out to us if there are any questions coming up. Because as much as we are the experts when it comes to the localization of content, the technical writers are definitely the experts when it comes to their material. And I really think that both parties have to well work together, that's really indispensable in my opinion, just to achieve the best possible result. So if there are any questions during this phase, please always feel free to ask your language service provider any questions because you're potentially looking for long term partner. So it's important to figure all these things out. And after we've evaluated the need and needs an answer to the questions, we're going to prepare a code for potential new client. And if the quote gets accepted, we get the translation project started right away. We give the translations to our experienced translators, either in house translators like myself, or we're also working with lots of freelance translators around the globe, but they are definitely all of them are experienced translators. They are translators, according to the ISO 17100 standard. So this means they either have formal education and some experience or they have a certain amount of years of experience, which also qualifies them to do translations for us. And we also make sure that the translators are specialized in the fields of the prospective client. And we always encourage our translators to ask questions, if they don't understand something, or if they need more context, to fully grasp the meaning of something in the source text. I personally think that's really important. Because, of course, they are not the experts for exactly this product or software. But I think it's very important that they get an understanding of it, that they understand what they're translating, do the research. So whenever there are any questions, I definitely encourage that they send them to me, and I get in touch with the technical writers, hey, they just sent me some questions, would you be so kind as to have a look and try to help them out? And we really appreciated it, if technical writers take some time out of their day and try to help out translators, because that's really well, it's, it's improving the overall outcome, I think. And as soon as the translations are ready, we do all of our texts in our translation software. And we re-export the files to the original source file format. So this can be anything from well, in our case, it's often the Madcap flare project or Microsoft Word, Excel files, JSON properties, really basically anything. We're doing our final checks there and then we are delivering the project to the client. We do appreciate feedback if anything is coming up. And some clients also like to do well a client review cycle. So what we often call SM e review, subject matter expert review. What I'd like to say about this subject matter expert reviews. If you intend to do something like this, please just get in touch with your language service provider. Tell them about it, because there are good ways to do such a review. For example, we offer either during the review in our web-based translation service, or in bilingual RTF files that allow us to update the translation with your changes. Just if you just correct the translation, let's say in the in the Word file we're delivering or if you make comments in PDF files, it's much more difficult and sometimes impossible to update the translations in our software. So please, just if you want to do an SME review, talk to the language service provider about it, there are right ways to do it. That makes life for both parties much easier.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

So you talked about the whole process, which is fantastic. A lot of questions that have come out of that. One of the questions that I want to sort of get out of the

Lisa Zarfl:

Human translation. Human translator does human way is, you mentioned as you are evaluating the needs, you look at the content, and you decide whether it is good for translation or machine translation. So I'm, I'm assuming that the translation you mean to say, manual translation? translation and machine translation basically,

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

How do you discern whether the content is suitable for one or the other?

Lisa Zarfl:

All contents are suited for human translation. That's just how it has been for many, many years. But when it comes to machine translation, well, there are certain text types that are better suited for machine translation than others. Like I've already stated before, everything that's non customer facing is definitely good for MT like internal company letters, news articles, intranet posts, they mostly have simple contents and are ideal candidates for MT, but also everything in the field of technical documentation. So most operating instructions or software manuals I'm encountering are well suited for MT, except for projects that are very technically complex. So I can just talk from my experience with Madcap Flare projects, if there are lots of very complex conditions and variables in there, that would probably not recommend using machine translation, just because then the engine doesn't really understand these concepts and can't make much of it. And text types that are not so well suited for machine translation in general is, like we've already said anything that's creative for contains cultural references. Also, complex legal texts are not so well suited for machine translation, just because they normally have really highly specialized terminology and long and complex sentences that are really important. So we rather do human translation for those. And also something that is nearly always translated by human translators, at least in our company, UI strings. So the user interface texts of Office software, for example, because MT engines work best with longer sentences and larger textual context. And UI strings. They are often submitted, for example, in Microsoft Excel format. And there's mostly unrelated terms. And often there's only one word per cell. And that word might even have several meanings. Let's, for example, take open, that's a very common English to string. But it can be a verb to open something, or it can also be an adjective to be open. So that's really, really difficult for an MT engine, it's already difficult for human translator, they often ask questions when it comes to things like that.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

I would have never thought that there's so much that goes on with translation behind the scenes.

Lisa Zarfl:

It's pretty complex. But I think that also applies to technical writing. I mean, all of these processes are so much more complex if you're in the middle of it.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

Absolutely, yes. Just the thought pure. In your opinion, internationalization versus localization, I've always struggled with that. Maybe you can be my SME and tell me what the difference is.

Lisa Zarfl:

So localization basically refers to localizing a certain product or software to a specific country to a specific market. So really localizing to the local culture and the laws and the concepts that exist in this country. And internationalization more refers to well, kind of streamlining the original product or software. So to remove or make easier, everything that would need to be localized afterwards. So basically, to just make the source product easier, and taking out contents that would need localization afterwards.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

I think that makes sense. You know, as you're sort of sharing your perspective on internationalization, from my perspective, I'm thinking okay, we're talking about how does content in the context of technical communication contribute to business value? So, as a technical writer, if you're writing content you want to be, even if you're not sure if this content is going to be translated, you want to be aware about how your content is being written so that it is devoid of cultural nuances. I think the cool things that you said earlier in the interview puns, idioms, allusions, ironies, that kind of stuff, so that it is it lends itself better to localization down the road.

Lisa Zarfl:

That's a good explanation. Thank you.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

Thanks to you. I mean, you brought it

Lisa Zarfl:

And also content that's consistent and precise. all together for me. So just like as much as this is, I'm synthesizing information, as you're giving it to me, because I'm like, the bottom line is how are we? How is content contributing to business value? That is my focus for season three. So far, all the things that you've talked about right? Machine Translation, the open dialogue between technical writers and translators, important, all that sort of starts contributing to okay, if you're keeping all these things in mind ahead of time, then the work that needs to happen downstream, can save you costs. So I don't create content that is going to be translated, but being aware of that. And sometimes it's just as part of our training, you know, it says in the styleguide don't do this. And I don't pay attention to that. Why, but it makes sense now, right? It's like, oh, that aha moment? Yes. In any case, I need to create content that is that is devoid of all these references and nuances,

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

And precise, important, very important. I realized, at some point, I said, manual translation. And I know that as we move towards more inclusive language, human translation, so I had to stop and correct myself, it's important that I also become aware of how the language is also changing in my industry, so thank you for that. I'm really having fun. We've talked about a lot of stuff here. Lisa, you know, now down to the meat of the question. You've touched upon how translation can save time. But in terms of saving cost, apart from the things that you have already mentioned, what can you think of that technical writers can do to save costs downstream,

Lisa Zarfl:

I'd like to talk about three topics, if possible, please, starting out with translation. Well, what we call basically translation oriented writing. So I think this one especially applies to technical writers, because you can already keep a potential translation of the material in mind from the start, basically, while doing the technical documentation. Well, there are just some ground rules that you can easily follow that will help to save cost in the long term. So starting out with, try to formulate your sentences, simply and precisely. So basically, when you're writing in English, this means like Subject, Verb, Object, try to really keep them concise. So I'm not saying that you should write your sentences, overly simplistic, but just try to avoid traces that go on and on and on and on. And something that's also really important is, well, terminology. Let's say you are talking about a laser scanner, for example, in your documentation, then call it a laser scanner, and not device for example. And after you have chosen your term, try to stick to the same term throughout. So it's really important to be specific and to use unambiguous terminology. Well, I'd also say, be careful with abbreviations, especially the non official ones. Try to explain them somewhere because, well, the translator will not know your company internal translate abbreviations. Also try to avoid filler words, try to avoid incomplete sentences, it's really important to try to stay as consistent as possible, because consistent texts are what is really important. For the second topic I'd like to discuss in these are translation memories. So I just quickly like to explain the whole process when you're sending us a text to translate. After evaluating everything, we import that text into our translation software. And this translation software must not be confused with automated machine translation. So that's not the same thing. Automated machine translation is really, as we've said, no human involvement machine translates text and a translation software. It's just a software where translators and agencies will translate the text basically, we don't translate it in Word or something. We do translate them in a translation software. Well known translation softwares, for example, our MemoQ or SDL, Trados Studio, for example. And in this translation software, there are two columns. There's a source column and the target column. So there's the source text on the left, and translation goes on the right. And the text is split up into different segments. And normally, one sentence constitutes one segment. That's how the text looks for a translator, and then translator starts to translate, translate all the segments, and they're kind of segment pairs they match together. And after the translation, after we did all of the checks, we save all these translation pairs in a translation memory. That's basically a database where all the translations for this specific projects are saved. And now let's say the client is sending the same manual again, six months later, of course, he has continued working on the manual, and it's an updated version. Now, they are sending the manual again, we are importing it again into our translation software. And then we run the text against the translation memory to see what has already been translated before. So everything that has been translated before is what we call 100% match, or even 101% match if the context is also the same. And the segment's are pre translated by our translation memory. And we do not charge for them anymore. So the client is only paying for anything that's new, or has changed. And of course, over time, more and more translations are being saved into the database into the translation memory. And this helps to tremendously reduce the cost over time, because there's more and more within the database. This just leads me to the third and last point, to save money with translations. This is basically centralizing your translation business. So I do understand that often, you will have different language service providers, different vendors you send translations to. But in the long term, it's really best to form a long term partnership with one translation service provider, just because of all the translation memories. And well, it's just a partnership is developing. And of course, if you are asking us for your translation memories, we will send them to you this is your content, you own these translation memories, you can send them to different vendor, for example. But we also often receive translation memories from the clients that they have received from their previous vendors, for example. And it's almost inevitably leading to inconsistencies just because you don't know what quality these teams are having. And they have different translators maybe working on them. So in the long term, you should really try to centralize your translation business with one vendor just to make sure that everything stays as consistent as possible. So those are my three tips for saving money, basically, translation oriented writing, keeping a translation in mind from the get go, profiting off translation memories and centralizing all the translations.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

I mean, it sounds easy to do, but I'm sure it's not right. Because you're doing this over time. And if especially if you're doing it for the first time, you really have to put in that effort. Have there in your experience, has there been a point in time where something was so like, where you had to reject and say we cannot translate, or they had to just go back to the drawing board and just start from scratch?

Lisa Zarfl:

We've had some pretty difficult projects in the past that posed a lot of challenges for us, and for the translators. And for the client. I think we have never said, we can't help you at all. Don't think that we've ever done that before. We are always trying to find the solution with the client. Maybe it's not exactly what they have been imagining in the first place. But we're always trying to explain where the issues are, and why some things might not be possible as they're imagining them. But then we try to work together with them to find solutions, for example, well, we have already helped client fans to just rework the source text, for example. So have some of our linguists help them to improve on their source texts. We often help clients with their Madcap Flare projects, if they're struggling with the technical issues there. Yeah, I don't think we've ever said we can't do anything for you. We're always trying to.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

Yeah, I think that was probably an extreme question, but I just wanted to kind of see, you know, for example, if there have been real challenges, but I think I'm going to sort of flip what you gave us and say everything As you said, right, if you can take care of these things upstream, then it doesn't become a problem later. So you're gonna say extract with translation, and then you're going to reach a larger target audience. So the company reach their content is reaching a larger audience, it is localized. And if you're taking care of all these things, you're saving cost with translation, you are expanding your business. And eventually, my point of this season is content, technical communication is bringing value to the bottom line. So there is a lot of thought and process that needs to go into product documentation, technical content that is being created, be internal, anything that is going to reach a target audience has to be well thought out. And that investment has to be made. And I think there are many companies where there is this challenge with justifying why, why you need a technical writer on the team. And I think this sort of lends to that, you need to think the why I think this probably answers the why and more.

Lisa Zarfl:

Totally understand it's the same for translators.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

Yes. And so that's the thing that I wanted to sort of bring to light what, what LSPs, dual language service providers do, am I right? Is that the right term? Lisa? LSP Right. Okay. And, and sort of elevating all these adjacent disciplines that sort of come together to create content. It's not just, oh, I can go write a sentence. And I'm done with writing, there is a lot of thought and strategy that goes into bringing that content to audience. And yes, nobody, I think will agree that it's fun to read a manual, or...

Lisa Zarfl:

Content can be more fun if it's well written.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

Exactly, and experienced professionals have are doing a good job. And there are a lot of success stories. But those are overshadowed by content that may not be well written. So we need to focus on why that may be happening, and what can we do to address it, and we need the support of the higher ups to sort of because at the end of the day, it is going to be something that is going to contribute to business value over the long term. And taking a short term perspective on things is detrimental to your business. I think you make an absolutely fantastic case for this. We've had a great conversation so far. Lisa, I want to make sure that I've covered all the questions that I had in mind. But is there anything else that you would like to add an expert insight that I may not have touched upon?

Lisa Zarfl:

More, we've talked about localization process, but machine translation, cost saving? Very important. I'd like to contribute something to what you just said, with the business value? You're absolutely right. And I think it's, I mean, I think the technical writing is, is a pivotal part of all the little things that have to play together and that are essential to make a product or process work. As is translation, if you are going global with your product. For technical writers, I think it's really important to well to highlight their expertise, but also to openly communicate their needs. But I think it's also important to keep in mind that the people they are talking to at their companies often don't have the same well field of expertise. And what's most importantly, probably they have different expectations. So I think it's it's important for technical writers as well as for translators, basically, everybody communicating with other departments. Just explain why you need something, why it has to be done like that. Yeah. If nothing helps anymore, it's always a good idea to visualize costs, maybe that could result from bad documentation, because people underestimated bad documentation really can well, as you said, can be detrimental.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

Yeah. And I think the critical thing that you touched upon was the why, as much as we say that we don't have the buy in technical writers, I think I've said this before, is that we have to step up, technical communicators have to step up and take these other professions that sort of work in tandem with us to elevate all of that, and to and to put it in a business sense and say why this is important. This is what I'm going to do. Please help me out. But no, why is this important to the bottom line? I think that is something that I myself am grappling with, how do I sort of like you said, we are pivotal. But how do we communicate that, in a business sense, is equally important? And I'm trying to I don't have an MBA. So I think I'm still trying to figure that out. But yeah, you make a good point that talking in numbers probably will make sense.

Lisa Zarfl:

I mean, that really speaks to managers in general,

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

In general, I agree. And that's, that's something that I have to kind of grow myself to grow into. And probably all of us are on that journey, where we are trying to figure out how do we get there, how do we start speaking in those terms, so that we are visible and we kind of make our value known in a value sense.

Lisa Zarfl:

Language people in general have to figure out for the future. Thank you.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

I think we all have to put our heads together to figure that

Lisa Zarfl:

Same issues when.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

Exactly, exactly. So this has just been an amazing, amazing conversation. I say this every single time but every single time I walk away learning so much, thank you for sharing all your insights with us. I hope I get to visit Austria someday, and I would love to come hang out with the you.

Lisa Zarfl:

Please come visit. It would be amazing. Yeah, I can show you the Alps and the lakes and forests. And we have been talking about Vienna before the podcast so you can come and visit Vienna and Graz.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

I want to. I envy you. I see those. Which movie is that?

Lisa Zarfl:

The Sound of Music, maybe. It's very popular among Americans.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

I love it. I'm like, I want to be there. So someday, I'm going to come and live my moment.

Lisa Zarfl:

Sure,

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

In Austria with you. Thank you so much.

Lisa Zarfl:

Thanks so much for having me. It was a really great session.

Zohra Mubeena-Mutabanna:

Absolutely. Subscribe to the podcast on your favorite app, such as Apple, Google, or Spotify. For the latest on my show, follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram, or visit us at www.insidetecomm.show. Catch you on another episode.